9-11, Eleven Years Later - The Next Steps

[jordan179]

Eleven years ago, the forces of Islamofascism committed a monstrous crime against America and against all humanity.  They made prisoner the civilian crews and passengers of four airliners and then murdered all their prisoners, in the course of an attack which brought down a civilian target -- the World Trade Center -- and slighly damaged one

Comments

[baron_waste]

I'm still amused at how you capitalize the word Terrorist™. I picture a GI Joe action figure. $9.97 plus tax.

“while the course of events which will otherwise come to pass will come to kill millions to tens of millions”

The course of events which MAY otherwise come to pass MAY come to kill millions to tens of millions - or not, and not. But your way is definite. And absolutely guaranteed to raise a new generation of Arabic- or Farsi-speaking people who will know, by the bloodied and burned bones of their law-abiding shopkeeper or tenant-farmer parents, that America has - what was that again - “committed a monstrous crime against all humanity”…

And the beat goes on…
And men still keep on marching off to war
Electrically they keep a baseball score…
And the beat goes on and on and on…

Standard English, Non-Standard Insane Powers

[jordan179]

First of all, it is absolutely standard English to capitalize the name of a national or political or diplomatic faction. We are fighting this war against the Terrorists: other reasonable alternatives might be "Islamists" or "Islamofascists." I note that you didn't suggest a preferred alternative, and suspect that in your own mind it's "poor innocent victims who did nothing to provoke us."

while the course of events which will otherwise come to pass will come to kill millions to tens of millions”

The course of events which MAY otherwise come to pass MAY come to kill millions to tens of millions - or not, and not. But your way is definite.

Given that Pakistan is atomic-armed and insanely-aggressive -- which she demonstrated in the Mumbai Massacre, an unprovoked attack against civilians in one of the largest city of a stronger neighboring Power, which is sort of a list of Things Sane Countries Don't Do -- and that Iran is insanely-aggressive and about to become atomic-armed, how exactly do you envision avoiding an atomic war

Unicycle of Violence

[jordan179]

By

And the beat goes on…
And men still keep on marching off to war
Electrically they keep a baseball score…
And the beat goes on and on and on…

you of course mean to imply that we would simply be "perpetuating the cycle of violence," but you offer no means of ending the war which Islam has started against not only Western but also Indian and other civilizations.

If America withdrew entirely from Muslim lands and abandoned all her alliances with any Powers which Muslim Powers or significant factions disliked or wished to conquer (this would mean not only cutting off our alliance with Israel but also NATO and SEATO), this would not stop the Muslims from continuing to attack those targets. Indeed, it would not even stop them from continuing to attack us, which they might do so because American newspapers published an excerpt from a book of which they disapproved

[baron_waste]

how exactly do you envision avoiding an atomic war between Pakistan, Iran and some other country or countries, without overthrowing or at least defanging their regimes?

Wrong verb. What you mean by 'avoiding' is preventing. How do we prevent such a war? Why, by carpet-bombing the entire Northwest Frontier with nerve gas, of course! Remember: crimes are only committed by the living.

Both Iran and Pakistan have committed numerous and intentional acts of war… If their people lack the maturity to understand this, then let them suffer and suffer again…

Okay, I can go along with that. Just tell me what acts of war little 8-year-old Fauzia, daughter of Sindhi shopkeeper Abdul Javaid, performed against the United States. You intend to burn this child to death in screaming agony for these “numerous and intentional acts,” so they must be pretty serious. What did she do

[fpb]

http://fpb.livejournal.com/639330.html

[lather2002]

History shows that Democracies do not respond but react the majority of times. Just saying

[baron_waste]

- Which is why so few wars are ever started by them. Problems arise when the Conquering Hero appears - either leading the opposing nation into war, or stepping up like Cincinnatus to lead the former democracy through this dangerous time. For Cincinnatus was unusual - he stepped down again.

The Lefties who were feverishly insisting that G W Bush would declare a national emergency to avoid leaving office, knew their history… of the Left, that is. I still recall the serious pundits who observed that Daniel Ortega of Nicaragua “was prepared to lose the election, but not to lose power.”

[A wonderful political cartoon at the time showed Castro on a Cuban beach, confronting a castaway Ortega on a raft with tattered Hammer-and-Sickle sail, saying to him, “You lost a WHAT?!”]

Of course, as FDR's first inaugural address showed, a truly ambitious Conquering Hero need only convince the democracy that it's already at war…
In every dark hour of our national life a leadership of frankness and vigor has met with that understanding and support of

[jordan179]

FDR's permanent expansion of the national government was evil, the more so because he began it in peacetime. However, had he failed to fight the Axis, what would have happened -- both to America and to the world -- would have been more terrible by far. Among other things, the dominant Great Powers of the second half of the 20th century would have been Germany and Japan -- both probably armed with nuclear weapons, and both still glorifying conquest for the sake of conquest. This would have been bad for America even if neither had attacked her directly, and it's difficult to see how, given the ideologies involved, we could have avoided at least brushfire wars with them.

[baron_waste]

It's interesting to take that comment and turn it around - what if the Bolsheviks had somehow defeated the Greater Reich? Brushfire wars indeed!

Elsewhere there was a discussion - I don't recall if you were involved - of what would have REALLY happened, divorced of the wartime propaganda, if Nazi Germany had prevailed. The interesting part was that because of the nature of the Party, the Edwardian supremacy of German science and technology would have been a thing of the past. The technological breakthroughs of the Reich were by men educated before its rise to power, and it's highly doubtful their like would appear again. Like the Soviets, and for the very same reason, the Reich would have been reduced to industrial espionage against the US. Also like the Soviets, the US would have supported the Reich more or less directly, needing it to justify its own military-industrial complex

[brezhnev]

The US had reason to go into Afghanistan, and should remain there until the job is done, meaning the fruit loops are no longer in danger of getting back in charge again. And Saddam needed to be taken out. But I'm not down with fighting Pakistan and Iran. There are many other means of conducting diplomacy.

And if war does break out without sufficient provocation from those countries to make it a proportionate response, I say we should draft Kristol, Feith, and all those others clamoring for it. To paraphrase Celine, we'll have a neo-con behind every battlement. They should be dragged from their editorial desks and placed on the front line; let them do some bleeding for a change. And I'm definitely not interested in helping India in territorial aggrandizement, especially after what their masses of cheap labor have done to the economy.

[jordan179]

But I'm not down with fighting Pakistan and Iran. There are many other means of conducting diplomacy.

Pakistan harbored Bin Laden after 9-11 and showed that it was the policy of their government, by the cruel treatment they gave to the Pakistani who told America of Bin Laden's presence. There is no way to interpret that other than as a warlike act. I'm curious to hear your explanation.

Iran based and supported armed bands which attacked and killed American and allied forces in Iraq, and Iraqi civilians, after the fall of Saddam's regimes. There is no way to interpret this other than as a warlike act. I'm curious to hear your alternative explanation.

And if war does break out without sufficient provocation from those countries to make it a proportionate response ...

As I have just finished pointing out, Pakistan and Iran have already committed acts of war against us.

[brezhnev]

As it happens, bin Laden is dead. (Three cheers for Leon Panetta on that one!) His presence in that country suggests some degree of bad faith, though how far up the chain of command that was cannot be determined. Be that as it may, attacking Pakistan a year and a half after the fact because of their [cluelessness | looking the other way | active complicity] on the [regional | national] level would produce nothing more than an impressive pile of corpses.

As for Iran, it's a trickier situation, and probably the best solution would be high level negotiations to the effect that they either knock it off or the US will happily fund and supply Iranian dissidents. The Iranian government is very unpopular and is on shaky ground, but an invasion by the US would cause their citizens to rally behind their government.

I say that, if at all possible, even more spit-in-your-eye wars that can't be paid for should be avoided.

[jordan179]

As it happens, bin Laden is dead. (Three cheers for Leon Panetta on that one!) His presence in that country suggests some degree of bad faith, though how far up the chain of command that was cannot be determined.

The fact that the Pakistanis responded to the death of this evil man by prosecuting, torturing and imprisoning the doctor who helped us catch him makes it abundantly clear what side they are on. This act of judicial perscution had to be authorized on the national level, since it was a long drawn-out affair.

Be that as it may, attacking Pakistan a year and a half after the fact because of their [cluelessness | looking the other way | active complicity] on the [regional | national] level would produce nothing more than an impressive pile of corpses.

Pakistan is still harboring large elements of Al Qaeda and the Taliban; they are still refusing to go after the Terrorists themselves and still complaining every time we take these swine out for them. Again, this makes it abundantly clear what side they are on