Brothers. It's a word.

[johnnypurple]

I was writing a comment to thimpressionist and thought maybe I'd make a post about this because I've been thinking about it a bit and was wondering what anyone else's thoughts were on the matter. (Also, I should be doing the dishes and also my bit for the tg-crack round robin, but instead I'm doing this. Anything to procrastinate!)

Brothers. A discussion in which I

Comments

[uk_sef]

There is such a thing as an lj-cut, you know ...

[johnnypurple]

Yeah, I know. Sorry, but this is my lj! ... um, ok, i might put it behind a cut.

[elfwhistletree]

Honey, I wonder if perhaps you are just being polite ( even though you're Australian ) about the tg_crack Round Robin - it's meant to be for fun, not a chore, and I promise I will not sulk if you'd rather pass ♥

[johnnypurple]

No! I know! I have most of it done, I just have to... I don't wanna pass! I'll get it in today! :D

[johnnypurple]

it's up there now! :D

[elfwhistletree]

gives you a cookie ♥

[elfwhistletree]

Much thinking in this post - so you get some waffle back - see icon ;-)

I think an awful lot of stories/films/TV shows are about male bonding - I'm not sure I can see very clear boundaries between buddy movies/odd couple/brother themes. A lot of them are about blokes who are together to do an exciting job, because that makes for a dramatic story - cops, space ship pilots, demon hunters, doctors, firemen, vets etc etc. For other examples I give you Kirk/Spock Starsky/Hutch Sharpe/Harper Maturin/Aubrey Robin Hood/Little John etc etc - and if you stretch the paradigm a bit you can fit in Xena/Gabrielle, the Three/Four Musketeers, Skywalker/Solo and even Apollo/Starbuck or Buffy/Xander?

[elfwhistletree]

I think a lot of us are romantic at heart and crave this sort of intense relationship - in real life things are not so simple - you never find a perfect soulmate, and never in a life or death situation where you have to rely on them completely. Instead we muddle along with family and friends, sharing different things with different people and hopefully appreciating the good parts and tolerating their imperfections. This is frankly a lot more sensible, but makes for a less good story.

And those of us who have slash goggles like to take the emotional intensity and make it sexual as well - this seems entirely reasonable to me ;-)

Some pairs of real life siblings are very close, I'm sure, but in practice you get to choose your friends but not your family, so I think a lot of people distance themselves from their siblings somewhat, either by accident or design, as part of the process of becoming adult.

[elfwhistletree]

I think one of the reasons that Sam and Dean are brothers is because the show is about their relationship with their father, and seeking revenge for their mother - they are equal in this cause. But I suspect there is also an attempt to distance them from a gay subtext - doesn't work very well ;-)

I'm not qualified to comment on BDS, but again their relationship with their parents might be important here.

In Dukes of Hazzard the main characters are cousins - as are the title characters in "Alas Smith and Jones" - not sure how relevant this is?

[elfwhistletree]

I think there is an avoidance of showing same sex relationships in main stream media, and this is just starting to crack - see Russell T Davies for more details. Bit Jack/Ianto and Willow/Tara is just about all the examples I can think of at the moment.

And I think writers need an excuse to force stereotypically macho blokes together so they can show their feelings in a manly way - probably mostly for the benefit of a female audience.

And I think men (now speaking from experience) do have feelings, and do care about each other, but the cliche that they show it by drinking beer and bonding over sports is not entirely untrue, at least in my experience. *shrug*

[wolfy_writing]

They have the kind of relationship I have never seen in real life siblings - but then I've never met a pair of siblings who hunt/kill demons/bad guys as a full-time pastime and maybe, were I to meet such siblings, then my opinion on this would change.

See, the main difference I see in the sibling relationship in Supernatural, and sibling relationships I have known is the external pressure. It's my idea of how families react, or I like to think that families react, when things go wrong and everyone needs each other the most. It isn't the kind of sibling relationship I see much of in real life, but it seems to follow logically from those relationships. So that probably makes it seems less slashy to me, and leaves me more inclined to take "brothers" at face value.

It would not appeal to the masses - the masses who I like to (optimistically) think are not homophobic (though maybe a chunk of them are), but who might not watch a show about two same-sex attracted guys.I agree here. A lot of people who aren't exactly hostile have a

[johnnypurple]

Probably for the same reason there's such a bad rate of success on male-female "just" friendships in popular entertainment. YES! I know what you mean and that did actually cross my mind when I was writing this (but I must have forgotten it again). It's like friendship can never just be friendship, or platonic love between people just platonic love. The characters have to be close because they're related, or because they are actually involved (romantically) with each other, or forced together via their job or whatever. We can't just have friends - a relationship depicted between two people being close and meaningful but them not being related or in love or whatever. Because I'm with you - some of my most meaningful, treasured relationships are with friends. I am interested also (though this is perhaps a whole other kettle of fish) in the kind of relationships teenage girls often have with each other - a kind of intense, passionate, close, slightly-insane relationship which is sometimes romantic or takes on the characterists of a

[nixwilliams]

It's like friendship can never just be friendship, or platonic love between people just platonic love.

ooh! this is what i adore about firefly - particularly the relationships of mal+zoe and mal+kaylee.

spn has had a qeer character, the girl in the last episode of S2, who is one of the special children. her 'power' is killing people by touching them. she killed her girlfriend. she is, i think, the first of them all to die in the episode. good work, spn.

[johnnypurple]

oh yeah, you are right about firefly. how could i forget? I do love those relationships as well. :D

oh that's right. that's one awesome and highly useful "special power". good on you, SPN, punishing the queer character (the only queer character? - not counting Andy & Ash?!) *le sigh*

[rionaleonhart]

You see, from my perspective, Sam and Dean have to be brothers; it's the only way their relationship makes sense to me, because I have brothers and I know that, even though we don't always get along, even though they drive me absolutely mad sometimes, I still love them more than anything else. There is nothing I value above my family. If Sam and Dean weren't related - perhaps even if they were canonically lovers - I don't think I would believe in their willingness to sacrifice everything for each other as absolutely as I do now. Er, not that I'm saying that friendships can't be incredibly close, but I definitely understand why the Winchesters were written as brothers.

Also, the importance of family is basically the entire premise of Supernatural, so, y'know...

[wolfy_writing]

I've noticed that I'm more sympathetic and less squicked when the people who are ready to sacrifice everything for each other are brothers than when they are lovers. It depends on context, of course, and things like whether the "everything" includes people who aren't in the relationship. But I definitely tend to go, "That's kind of creepy, actually," faster in romantic relationships, and get put off more easily.

[johnnypurple]

I wonder if that's because you choose your romantic partner/s, but you get no choice with family. Because I agree with your comment, but I am wondering why this is. Though I guess sacrificing one person for another person is still dodgy - whose to say whose life has more value? I wonder if this is part of why some people in the Torchwood fandom are all "jack doesn't deserve Ianto/Ianto deserves better than Jack" because jack doesn't seem to favour Ianto, he seems to feel the need to save everyone and is not willing to sacrifice any one person for Ianto. (though perhaps I'm wrong here?)

[wolfy_writing]

In my case, it's mostly me being perverse. I can only have so many "Forget your friends and family and place romantic love above all!" stories pushed at me before I react completely the opposite and become cynical about romantic love taking any kind of price out of other people.

Also, for some reason, all those "Give up everything for the one you're in love with!" stories evoke those high school lectures on how to spot abusive relationships, whereas giving up everything for friends and family doesn't as much.

I think the main issue with Jack/Ianto is that they're not exactly good at establishing what the hell is going on. Has Ianto agreed to an open relationship? Are they officially not monogamous, or is it just Jack doing what he likes? Is Ianto comfortable with this? Because it's clearly not following the old rules, and it's not evident what is going on.