Moon v. Wiscon Follow-up

[jimhines]

I’m still sorting through my feelings on Wiscon rescinding Elizabeth Moon’s Guest of Honor invitation.

It’s not the first time something like this has happened.  William Sanders’ GoH invitation to ICFA in 2008 was rescinded after his “sheet head” rejection letter, for example.  (Thanks to Nick Mamatas for that historical pointer.)

Basically, I

Comments

[muccamukk]

Thanks for this post, Mr Hines. I'm always impressed by how much time you put into your blog.

Just reading all these comments pretty much killed my before work writing time, let alone replying to them.

This is going to be my first WisCon, and I'm really glad that "Muslims: Civilised or Not" is not going to be on the agenda. Conversation not worth having.

I hope that you have the time and money to come.

[jimhines]

"Just reading all these comments pretty much killed my before work writing time, let alone replying to them."

I don't agree with Moon's decision to delete all of the comments, but I definitely understand the inability to keep up with and respond to them all :-)

"I hope that you have the time and money to come."

Thanks! If I do, I'll definitely mention it on the blog beforehand.

[nihilistic_kid]

* If you use any of the following terms, I’m not going to bother reading further: feminazi, PC Police, FAIL Fandom, fascist, jihadist, thought police. (I reserve the right to add to this list.)
* If you describe a decision which came after roughly six weeks of intense internal and external debate as “knee jerk,” I’m not going to bother reading further.
* If you dismiss everyone who disagreed with Moon’s post as mean old PC bullies/cowards, I’m not going to bother reading further.
* If you equate the decision to rescind an invitation to be Guest of Honor with burning Moon’s books/burning Moon in effigy, I’m not going to bother reading further.
* If you label everyone who questions Wiscon’s decision “disgusting bigots,” I’m not going to bother reading further.

What? Don't you want comments?

[jimhines]

Well, yeah! I'm just not gonna read 'em.

[amy34]

WisCon's decision made me put them on the very short list of "cons I will never attend." I didn't see any bigotry into Moon's post. Some of her points were debatable and possibly wrong, but the extreme reaction has had the effect of shutting down any useful conversation, and my takeaway has been that certain topics simply can't be discussed on the internet

[sixteenbynine]

I suspect it's because there's now the unspoken sense that what matters most is not making your case, but keeping your audience. It doesn't matter if your point of view is wrong; if you have enough sympathizers, that renders the correctness of your position moot, because you will be correct by fiat.

This isn't so bad when it comes to matters of taste or aesthetics. When it comes to using such things to ignore simple physics -- like, say, how much of any given resource is left on this planet -- the results are increasingly deadly.

[zornhau]

I'm afraid Americans of both parties stopped regarding the opposition as human and at the same time decided that truth is relative. It's rather terrifying to watch otherwise sane people construct crazy arguments just in order to damn the other side.

[fantasyecho]

A lot of us with mental illnesses manage to be crazy without being bigoted, rude, and/or hateful, thanks very much.

Thanks for airing this...

[zornhau]

...it's made me feel a little better, and I think I understand where other people are coming from. The threads have become too cumbersome to follow, so I'm calling it a day now.

Re: Thanks for airing this...

[jimhines]

I'm really glad to hear that, thank you. (Not that the threads were cumbersome, but that the conversation was helpful.)

Re: Thanks for airing this...

[zornhau]

I of course subsequently got sucked back in.

Re: Thanks for airing this...

[jimhines]

Scary how easily that happens, isn't it?

[klwilliams]

My impression of Moon's position, reinforced by reading the article she linked to, is that she's describing a very practical way based on human nature for Moslems to integrate (not be assimilated, but to merge) into mainstream US culture. Yes, there are many "shoulds" about the best way for enlightened people to welcome others and live happily together, but in reality, for practical reasons based on human nature, the "shoulds" never work that well. As an example, I was raped by an Iranian man. That experience has completely soured me on Iranian men in general, probably forever. Yes, I do know that there many, many, many Iranian men who aren't rapists, but try telling that to my hind brain.

[trinker]

My impression of Moon's position, reinforced by reading the article she linked to, is that she's describing a very practical way based on human nature for Moslems to integrate

I'd appreciate seeing a further expansion of your impression on that. I don't see it.

[furikku]

Oh, it's practical, all right. Provided they are A-OK with giving up all their own cultural trappings in exchange for being harassed and discriminated against less.

It's terrible, but it is practical.

[barbarienne]

Let's accept the assertion as true, as a thought-experiment.

That doesn't change the basic problem with "you should assimilate if you want to avoid being targeted," which sounds exactly like "you shouldn't dress that way if you want to avoid being raped."