Thelemic Government and Personal Work

[jbarros]

The concept of Thelemic hierarchy is one which obviously consumed a great deal of Crowley's thoughts, and one which I don't really understand at present. He speaks often of what it isn't, and puts forth a theory for what it might be, but as of yet, has not really happened

Comments

?

[keith418]

"I was told the other day that these materials do not necessarily hold up in the light of today's world, and that we are left instead with a process where our leaders move through the initiatic path and from personal revelation form the Thelemic government of our Day."

And you believe this is true... why? Who told you this and how specific were they willing to be? If this is true, what specifically is the new, post-BE plan and who, exactly, is clarifying it?

"I was told the other day..."

People tell me things all the time. Sooooooo?

Re: ?

[jbarros]

No, I do not. This is why I was trying to address it.

"To this end, if someone, through personal revelation, comes to believe something which is directly contrary to the holy books, they are, despite personal revelation not Thelemic."

Stand up like a man and do something.

[ensurientchaos_]

I think it would be a shame if you continued to not involve yourself with the Order. One of your great strengths seems to be your Agape, which appears to me to not be tarnished by the cruelty or insecurity that so often results from frustration.
Such a warmth can win quick friends and allies, I think.
A lot of people in the Order seem to cut down the conversation concerning Crowley's ideas concerning government at the head before it even begins, with the excuse that his ideas are unrealistic. Plenty of things outside of a specific framework appear unrealistic. Consider the source.
I would challenge them to explain themselves. You might get them to go somewhere they wouldn't have otherwise.

Re: Stand up like a man and do something.

[jbarros]

Thank you for your kind words.

This was actually a captive conversation, as we were in a car for an hour discussing the topic. I think we will be getting together to continue the discussion over the following years, but I believe there is a core divide, and am interested in developing the dialog until we can both more clearly define and develop our position not only for each other, but with the hope of mutually coming to better understand our own positions and test them against the writings of the Prophet.

-- James

Re: Stand up like a man and do something.

[ensurientchaos_]

I find generally one of the most confusing aspects of any discussion of government is what it's definition is, what government is supposed to produce. If you can get your friend to lay that out for you, and you can lay out it clearly as well, you will probably get somewhere. But until you establish this, you will probably not communicate your ideas to the other that well.
This "object of government" may be your "core divide".

Re: Stand up like a man and do something.

[jbarros]

I've been going over my thoughts on this subject with some people, and will be attempting to redo this post shortly. I started last night and got about 1500 words in before realizing, as you said, that there there is some serious foundation work that needs to be done.

When I started to try to lay out the difference between American ideals and Thelemic ideals, I was brought back to the slogan of the French revolution, and how we each define the terms "Freedom", "Equality", and "Liberty" I am going to try to get a post up on Crowley's thoughts on equality soon, and move forward from there. Without these foundations, a discussion of government ends up as disjointed as my above post :(

From these, we can get to the "Object of Government" and from there, what the best means of achieving that goal.

Thanks :)

-- James