Captain America: Civil War

[janne_d]

Saw the latest Marvel offering last night, and I feel a mighty need to ramble about many things. This is not a review so much as me working out various ideas as I think through them but

Comments

[emeraldsword]

I kind of agreed with this when I saw it, I think - but thinking back on it (probably with fandom-glasses on!) I was thinking about how nobody was able to make an impartial decision without their own personal feelings driving it. Yes, Tony is the main example of that, both in wanting to sign the Accords to lift the burden of responsibility off his own back and onto the communal back (and as a sop to Pepper) and also in making the decision to fight Bucky at the end despite the villain telling him that that's what he wants to happen. But although Steve said all the right things in the meeting, about the risks of not being sent where they need to go and being subject to powerplay and so on, in the end his decisions seemed largely based on what is happening to Bucky. Which, obviously, incredibly important, but to say that his is the right perspective when he kind of backed himself into a corner because of the way he reacted when Bucky was threatened is...interesting

[janne_d]

I... don't think Steve had the right perspective, and I absolutely didn't mean to imply that he is impartial. He has a different perspective on the Accords than Tony does, and I think their motivations are both very in character given their recent experiences. The film did do a very good job of making it difficult to be fully on either side of the argument! Annoyingly, since Steve is the Avenger of my heart... Most of my musings about Steve's reaction are me trying to think into his perspective, largely because the Team Tony response is easier for me to understand and agree with.

Though I'd like to make a distinction with this:
in the end his decisions seemed largely based on what is happening to Bucky
I would say his decisions about how he personally was going to act once the frame up occurs are clearly about Bucky and then trying to stop Zemo. But all of that occurs after he has already decided not to sign the Accords, and in my view has nothing to do with the issue of the Accords other than it limiting Steve's options and

[janne_d]

So I was thinking about this some more (because this film has eaten my brain) and thinking that the film doesn't really show how Steve would have dealt with the Accords, if he would have tried to challenge/protest them before breaking them if he hadn't been overtaken by the Bucky-Zemo plot, and it occurred to me that may have been what you meant about him being backed into a corner, so sorry if I misread that

[emeraldsword]

Yes, I think that's what I meant. I didn't mean to accuse you of being too much of a Steve fan! I basically feel the same - that the Accords are necessary because everyone needs to be accountable in some way, but in the battle I was really rooting for Steve because OMG they can't take Bucky! Whereas logically I should be hoping that Tony's legal eagles would take down Steve's vigilante posse

[trobadora]

This is an excellent analysis, thank you for this!

On Bucky's memory, I thought he remembered everything just fine, just pretended not to at first because he wanted to get Steve out of the way of the fight he could see coming.

I also thought it was very interesting that both T'Challa and later Tony were trying to play judge, jury and executioner while nominally on the side of the Accords. I still can't decide if I think that's a brilliant choice, or mostly accidental.

[janne_d]

You might be right about Bucky lying to start with to get Steve out of the line of fire - I just wasn't entirely sure watching it what was going on with him. There was another post I read that was about how both Steve and Bucky are dealing with being reunited (short version: not well, leading to total inability to verbalise emotions on both sides) that suggested he does it because he just can't right then, it's too much to have a direct question from and about Steve - but later in the Quinjet when Steve makes it more a casual reminiscence, he can talk about that memory fine because it isn't a big emotional moment

[trobadora]

I saw that meta post as well and agreed with a lot of it! But I also thought Bucky's initial reaction was mostly, "OMG NOT NOW!" He's managed to stay under the radar for two years, suddenly everything's crashing down on him, and then on top of everything else there's Steve getting right into the middle of it (as per usual). So, basically, in part he couldn't deal with it just then, and in part he was trying to extricate himself by brushing Steve off.

do you think the film makers were muddying the motivational waters as a hint that Steve's side is the more righteous?

Not really. If it's deliberate, I'm reading it more as a point of characterisation - perhaps because both of these characters are to some degree aware of their ability to go that much out of control, they're also more aware of the need for oversight? Not that oversight would have helped any, in those circumstances, but the same is true for what Tony did with Ultron.

Steve is a lot of things, but I don't think he's ever seen himself as someone who needs to be stopped.

[janne_d]

because both of these characters are to some degree aware of their ability to go that much out of control, they're also more aware of the need for oversight

Hmm, I hadn't thought of it like that, but it fits with Tony's guilt over Ultron too.

Yeah, I think other people are the ones who see Steve as needing to be stopped! He's not going to stop, he's going to decide on a course and then go... So he's either more confident in his own actions and decisions than Tony, or better at reconciling his mistakes and moving on.

(Love the icon btw.)