womenlovefest day 1 2.0, meta, ASOIAF: three things Brienne of Tarth isn't,

[janie_tangerine]

I try my best to be just like I am, but everybody wants you to be just like them.
Maggie's Farm, Bob Dylan*

*this song couldn't fit less with ASOIAF generally, but those lines keep on screaming Brienne to me for some reason and it felt like a proper opening.

Or: hi and welcome to day one of Brienne appreciation for womenlovefest. My first day ended up being

Comments

[fauxkaren]

Another thing that you get from reading her AFFC POVs: she wants so desperately to be a knight because swordfighting is the one thing that comes natural to her. She doesn’t feel out of place with a sword the way she feels out of place with a gown. She knows that her only chance to do something good in life is putting her skill to use and be a knight. She doesn’t have a chance of being the fair maiden in any of said songs, but she can be the knight, and that’s why she takes vows and oaths and knighthood so seriously. At least it means that if she dies she gets to live in those songs where everyone is beautiful and it’s always summer.
Beautifully stated. I think it is interesting to consider the way that Brienne idealizes knighthood in light of the fact that she sees herself as skilled in knightly pursuits so it could be attainable for her vs the fact that she will never be able to be like the pretty maids in the songs.

A feminist stereotype/a character put there to make feminists happyMajor eyerolling at this criticism of Brienne. If

[janie_tangerine]

I'm pretty fascinated with the fact that she takes knighthood/vows/oaths/etc. so seriously because it's what she's good at (at least for me). She has skills ans she knows it, and she's not cut for everything else that is expected of her, so why shouldn't she go for something she can have at least? I don't get why some people put it as if it means that she doesn't know how the world works.

And ugh, the 'she's there because she's made to appeal to feminists' argument makes me want to smash mirrors. Following it, 90% of the characters in there should have been made to appeal to someone instead of being there because they actually have a story. (And as if feminists only like women with a sword that do something man-like - wtf? That makes me baffled as much as people being fixated on Brienne being there to be the resident Westeros feminist.)

[bold_seer]

She’s a highborn lady, she’s beautiful, she was raised far from the main court so she can afford to have a romanticized view of court life, she’s about to be married to what is a handsome prince to her; she has no reason to think that songs aren’t real until her prince puts her father’s head in front of her. Brienne doesn’t need a reality check because she already had it. Her world isn’t a song, but she wants to be in one anyway.

Well said; it's such a great parallel that you are making between Sansa and Brienne. Some people seem to think Sansa and Brienne are too innocent, that is, naïve - and hence stupid - but that's not really what they're about, IMO. (Can I also throw in Ned Stark isn't naïve and/or stupid, either, even though this discussion is about the women?)

Both are, perhaps, wishing life could be a song, but I don't see how that's such a bad thing. They are or become very aware of the realities of their situations. And in this world they're striving to be good and to fulfil their duties, which for Brienne is loyal

[janie_tangerine]

I don't like that naïve apparently = stupid. And lol Ned most definitely WASN'T naïve. Or stupid. (If I said he was then I should say that his eldest son was too since they were cut of exactly the same cloth, and the day I say Robb Stark was anywhere near stupid is the day I don't answer to my name anymore. Okay, back to the topic.) Or that innocent = naïve = stupid. Or that there's just one kind of innocent anyway - Brienne definitely isn't the kind of innocent who is like that because they don't know how the world works, and Sansa went past that by now.

I don't see why wishing life could be a song is a bad thing either. The difference for me is that for Brienne it never was and for Sansa it was for a time, but at the same time saying that Brienne is hopeless because she wants to be a good knight when it's the one thing she can do well is.. yeah, way too cynical? Saying there's no value in that (or that it's too boring and please give them back Littlefinger!) is ridiculous. :/

[janie_tangerine]

I'LL TAKE IT WITH JOY. ;)

[brijeana]

Just Jaime’s moral compass

This opinion really bothers me because it's only seeing her character as she relates to and effects Jaime. I realize that's a huge plot development but it makes me angry because I love her for who she is in her own right, not for what she does/illuminates for Jaime. GRR!

whatever is going on between her and Jaime is a mix of hard-earned respect and reciprocal influence

Yes, yes, yes! The relationship goes both ways. They are both learning and growing because of the relationship. I think Brienne empowers Jaime to draw on his OWN strength and start to decide moral boundaries for HIMSELF. I love the moment with the white book because Jaime is realizing that he can create new possibilities for himself.

he was the one person trusting her/her skills for real

OMG yes! Renly, Cat and then Jaime all treated her as a true knight. Renly trusted her with his life, Cat with her daughters, Jaime with his honor. HUGE.

Brienne doesn’t need a reality check because she already had it. Her world isn’t a song, but she

[janie_tangerine]

Ugh I know. And I say it as a die hard Jaime/Brienne person, but saying that she's there just to serve his story just won't fly. :/ It's not as if she wasn't there before stumbling into him. And I loved her before she and Jaime ended up in the same scene. But clearly no one says that he was there just in order to make Brienne more flexible about judging people based on their reputation, so why should she be there just to show him that he's not as bad as he thinks? Meh.

I think Brienne empowers Jaime to draw on his OWN strength and start to decide moral boundaries for HIMSELF.THIS SO MUCH. Just, YES, THIS. I like their relationship because it's not one sided and it's totally out of their control meaning that they started disliking each other and ended up liking each other without even realizing how exactly it happened - why does it have to be just her being his moral compass? It makes it a lot easier than it really is in truth

[kem_viva]

Totally agree with everything you say here!

I hate that Brienne is just "Jaime's moral compass" to some people. If that logic worked then the same thing could be said for plenty of characters in the series. I find Brienne's development just as interesting as Jaime's tbh, but because Jaime is more "entertaining'' he gets more fans.

Completely agree about Cersei as well.

[janie_tangerine]

What irks me about the Jaime thing is that the way I see it, it goes both ways, but people only single out her role in his character development. And yeah following that line of reasoning then Sandor is there just to serve Sansa or Arya's story, but I have never heard -that- anywhere. Also I find Brienne's development as interesting as Jaime's too, but I guess that Jaime is more evident also because he starts as highly unlikable while Brienne stays a good person throughout so it's a more subtle thing. But I love it also because it's subtle. (And because I liked Jaime from the beginning so I was happy with the development, but it didn't change my general feelings on him.)

Cersei is so the one character I'd single out, while discussing feminism in Westeros. Idk why so many people are convinced that it's just Brienne's thing when imo for Brienne it really isn't about that kind of issue.