confessions of a snarky beta (#4)

[isiscolo]

A lot of fairly sophisticated writers who are relentless self-editors don't see the need for a beta editor. Their stories are usually free of the grammatical and spelling errors that mark the work of poorer writers; they certainly don't need someone for the technical fixes. But really, this type of editing is the least interesting (and least

Comments

[millefiori]

I too want to thank you for sharing this. In fanfic circles people often talk about the need for a good beta, and of course you get to see public thanks from grateful writers, but (I suppose in the interest of discretion, on both sides) it's pretty rare to actually get to see details.

This sort of openness also helps to clarify what people actually mean when they refer to a rip-it-to-shreds beta, or a kind, tactful beta. I think that's a big drawback in any discussion of beta reading, actually - because the process tends to be so private, we have no idea if we're actually communicating with each other, or if we're inadvertently talking apples and oranges!

[isiscolo]

(I suppose in the interest of discretion, on both sides)

I suppose I should have gotten permission from my betas to publicly post their criticisms. Oops. Um, if you guys want me to recant, let me know.

This sort of openness also helps to clarify what people actually mean when they refer to a rip-it-to-shreds beta, or a kind, tactful beta. I think that's a big drawback in any discussion of beta reading, actually - because the process tends to be so private, we have no idea if we're actually communicating with each other, or if we're inadvertently talking apples and oranges!Oh, how true! About halfway through one writer's story where every other sentence ended with or contained an ellipsis, and sick of writing "replace this ellipsis with a period," I commented, "You need to go through a twelve-step program for ellipsis addiction. I am...going to forbid you...from ever using...ellipses...again..." She got huffy and we ultimately parted ways. Then several months later I beta'ed another writer who had a similar addiction, and told

[telensar]

I suppose I should have gotten permission from my betas to publicly post their criticisms

I’m delighted. I was curious to know what your other betas had said, too. And I think you’re brave to open up your writing process like this.

dare to bare

[fabularasa]

You are definitely the girl who strips off all her clothes at a party.

This was such a cool thing to do. The back of the Norton anthology has a wonderful reproduction of one of Yeats' poems in process -- much line crossing and scribbling, much "stitching and unstitching." I have always been hypnotised by it, as I am by this, not least because as a beta you wonder, hmm. . . what're the other betas saying? I've often thought it would be fun to conference-beta. So let's just take this the next step, shall we? Next time you write something, you just post it on lj, and then telensar, amanuensis1, and I can post our comments for everyone to see, and we can have each other's to refer to as well. Now, wouldn't that be instructive?

Re: dare to bare

[isiscolo]

I guess I should have asked your permission before taking your clothes off as well, huh?

I'm just fascinated by process. (I want to say something about meta beta here, just because that sounds cool. Meta beta meta beta!) I keep thinking about actually writing down all the notes I make in my head in preparation for a story, and then posting it later so that people can see how a story morphs from conception to creation. Hell, In Want of a Wife was originally going to be Snape/Lockhart.

And, actually, I think having mutually ignorant betas (oh, that's not quite what I mean, but you know) is a good thing, because they don't come to the story with any preconceived notions. Mentioning that I wasn't happy with the ending was unusual, and a bit of a tip-off; more interesting was a bit with Ass where amanuensis1 zeroed in on a paragraph I wasn't happy with, and echoed my thoughts on it exactly -- thoughts I hadn't shared with anyone -- which confirmed my suspicions and led me to rework that section.

Re: dare to bare

[darkkitten1]

Fascinating post and discussion.

Absolutely y'all should try stripping in public! Er, I mean conference-betaing.

I've done this often with great success. It's a lot of fun as a beta to see what other betas did with the same issues you played with. The way we'd usually work it is that in round one each beta writes a response alone, without looking at any of the others'. Then in round two everyone posts a meta-beta, where they can agree/disagree with the other betas' comments. In round three the author responds to all the meta-betas in one long post. Works best with two to five betas if they are wordy, or more if they are terse.

The resulting tome risks ending up many times longer than the fic (not that the author usually minds this). It takes time. But few joys in the world compare to watching brilliant people lock horns over one of your sentences.

[lasultrix]

Chouette is a fabulous name for a French owl! Go telensar.

I confess that I never use a beta for short pieces. The delay never seems worth the pay-off, as I am an obsessive self-editor, and errors in all writing, including my own, tends to jump out at me. I'm sure that if I did get every fic I write beta'd, the overall standard of my writing would be slightly higher, but I'm happy enough with the standard of my short fics. If a few words could have been better chosen, so be it.

Plus, I sometimes edit later after feedback. Erin sent me a very good, detailed feedback e-mail on the only Smallville fic I've ever written, and I made edits afterward. An American RL friend read my AtS fic, and I changed 'trousers' to 'pants'.

I definitely agree that for longer pieces, though, a beta is invaluable. You have so much internal consistency to keep going, and what you have to convey to the reader becomes so much more complex. If I never had VM beta-read, I'd probably still think it was a good fic, but I'd know it had several mistakes in it.

[isiscolo]

I guess it depends on your definition of "shorter" -- I don't bother with betas on drabbles or quickie fun things that I just throw together. But oh, yes, for long stories you just have to have someone checking for consistency. (In Scars, which for me was a long fic, telensar caught that I had spelled the name of an extremely minor OC slightly differently in the second half of the story -- aie!)

[faerieflight]

I found your entry absolutely fascinating. Now, I don't really write that much, but I know how to appreciate good writing when I see it.

Unfortunately, I have been exposed to all kinds of stories, and have gotten rather desensitized to the beauty and intricacies of the English language. Nowadays, I don't even wince much at spelling errors anymore! -gasp-

Your post remedied that distressing lack. I have been reminded anew of what good writing should be, and I thank you very much for sharing.

To tell you the truth, I don't normally read this pairing, but the lovely prose just caught me and refused to let me go. Proof of how language can overcome all squickish barriers.

Oh, and as a side note: You have wonderful betas.
-bows in worship-

[amanuensis1]

What I found particularly nifty about this essay was seeing what others focused upon in seeing the same first draft, that went past me. See, multi-beta is indeed an excellent thing! I really enjoyed reading this

[isiscolo]

And beta-ignorance (see above) works well, except that it might be sensible to run things that you are uncertain of off your other beta(s).

Hee. This is where I tell you that I had to run the revised version of the ending by fabularasa because she expressed concern when I told her I was changing it. I suppose having an odd number of betas helps -- you all could vote on things!

[darkkitten1]

I think most of us beta the way we'd want to be beta'd. Unless I have a pre-agreement with an author that I am pressed for time and will only make a "Here's what didn't work for me and I think you should consider altering" response, I like to talk about both the positive and the negative in a story. (And to couch the negative constructively and gently. Don't want to put anyone on the defensive if I can help it!) Because otherwise, how would we know what was particularly good, so that we know where our strengths are and how to cultivate them? Amen, Amen, Amen

[amanuensis1]

One of the things that I'm guilty of too is the feedback that says, "Oh, and the sex was really hot!" Now, sometimes, in my stories in particular, the sex is a very significant part of it-- it may go on for pages and pages and pages. So essentially, "the sex was hot" is about as useful as "your fic was great." Don't get me wrong, it's nice to hear that! It's just not all that constructive as feedback. And many people don't even read the smut; it bores them, they skip it. So those of us who enjoy reading the smut (me for one; a mediocre fic that promises NC-17 will often have me yelling, "Get to the shagging!") might, if we want to leave constructive feedback and not just a "It was great, wish I could say more!" comment, keep that in mind.