Book Review: The Tomoe Gozen Trilogy, by Jessica Amanda Salmonson

[inverarity]

Comments

[fpb]

Just a small remark. Ms.Salmonson did not actually have to go as far as Japan and a historically dubious figure to find female warrior heroes. Marzia degli Ordelaffi, Joan of Arc, Queen Tamar of Georgia and Queen Isabel of Castile (who commanded the long and bitter war for Grenada, although she does not seem to have fought in person) were indubitably real persons, and were only the best known of a considerable number of fighting women of the period. Italy was particularly rich in them. As with many other things, the so-called Protestant Reformation was a disaster in this field as well: one of Luther's own goals was to get the girls "back" into the kitchen, to which Western civilization had never previously confined them.

Re: NEW RULE

[inverarity]

If you have successive ideas, there's an "edit" button.

Calling someone ignorant is always an insult, even if it is true -- there are lots of things you can call someone that are true and no less insulting for it -- but especially when the basis on which you assume ignorance is specious.

Re: NEW RULE

[fpb]

What, that you ridicule the experience of others? Either I assume that you don't have that experience, that is, that you are ignorant in that area, or else that you are a rude, obnoxious, close-minded bastard. The fact that you ridicule something that is, to those who have been there, as obvious and familiar as the smell of new-baked bread, certainly demands some sort of explanation, and of the two, I think that is the better one - the one that leaves you, at least, with less of a stain on your intellectual honour. (Although invoking f_w is itself pretty shameful.) And speaking of ignorance, there is no edit button unless you have a paid account, which I don't have.

Re: NEW RULE

[inverarity]

I'll try to live with the shame.

I didn't realize you can't edit your own posts without a paid account, so I'll keep that in mind. But I really don't think it's too much to ask that you try to keep the conversation in a single thread.

Re: Oh, fpb is making wank out of nothing, it must be a day ending in 'y'

[fpb]

The thing I mind the most, in this outburst of intellectual testosterone, is that I am being made to sound as though I am condemning Ms.Salmonson or treating her as some sort of hateful party hack harridan. To the contrary, it is my view that she has taken the culture of her time in a positive and constructive direction, and that she is a significant and talented writer. One does not have to like where she comes from, to like what she has done. Plus, of course Red Sonja - except perhaps in the first Barry Windsor-Smith incarnation - is a joke. That whole Roy Thomasish attempt to create "strong women" from a wholly inadequate cultural background was embarrassing from the word go and has not got better with age; and you may notice that Red Sonja was a consistent commercial failure.

Re: Oh, fpb is making wank out of nothing, it must be a day ending in 'y'

[fpb]

And to finish with - who is wanking? I made a small remark about the peculiar places where Ms. Salmonson found her heroines; you and Teal Terror jumped all over it. The only thing I contributed was my clear expectation, as stated to Teal Terror, that this would happen.

Re: Oh, fpb is making wank out of nothing, it must be a day ending in 'y'

[fpb]

Another statement that really reaches the height of folly is "perhaps she wrote something that happened to be a personal interest of hers, you know, not something she just decided to write motivated by a Western-civilization-hating feminist agenda". The nonsensical element in this is that you seem to regard the two terms as mutually exclusive and contradictory. And that is typical in terms of chronology. Of course, if there is an establishment view about western civilization, etc., which is a power in the land and which perhaps ambitious young people would do well to cultivate, then you might postulate such a contradiction: anti-western feminist rhetoric is either a personal concern or a pre-existing agenda to be pushed. But a woman born in 1950 and coming to maturity and activity in the late sixties/early seventies would experience that as very much a personal issue. In the age of Germaine Greer and Betty Friedan, women did not need career prospects or frowning faculty faces to encourage them to believe the worst of society

[fpb]

Sorry, I'm going to have to take issue with that last sentence. While the Protestant Reformation may very well have made gender roles even more unequal, Western civilization (and most every civilization, for that matter) has never appreciated women being more than a wife and mother. The only exception was poor women, who could never afford to spend all their time in the household. Of course, Western civilization has its issues with poor people, too.

I'm also a little put-off by your seeming implication that she would have been better served writing a European fantasy than a Japanese one, but I assume that was unintentional.

-TealTerror

[fpb]

This breathtaking response shows exactly the kind of mind I just described in my answer to inverarity - the kind that would rather be flayed alive than admit that our fathers were anything but monsters. I don't particularly blame you: you are the product of a very, very bad tradition of pseudo-historical indoctrination. Frankly, I see no hope in any argument with you, but just in case, here is something I wrote earlier: http://fpb.livejournal.com/368548.html

[fpb]

First of all, you can't be certain that my "fathers" were members of Western civilization. Second, I never even implied that previous generations of Western civilization were "monsters" (even accounting for hyperbole).

I would also like to request that you don't treat me like a 10-year-old, but that's neither here nor there.

I do have a feeling this conversation isn't going to lead anywhere good, but in a spirit of optimism, I'll post my response anyway. I'd appreciate it if you don't reply with insults this time.

I read the first half of your essay, then skimmed the rest (you can be somewhat long-winded, and I got the general idea). I'll just make the following points:

1. Let's stop generalizing with "Western civilization." There is no such thing. There are Western civilizations, and while some general trends can be noticed among them, a specific issue like the treatment of women has varied greatly. Even within one time period, Britain, say, treated women differently from Spain, France, Italy, etc

[fpb]

Evidently you are not even willing to pay attention to anything I said - your mention of ancient Athens is enough to establish that, since any idiot - and I do mean idiot - who had actually read the post I linked to would know that I do not regard ancient Rome or Athens as part of Western civilization. I am speaking of something eles altogether. And since you have given this clear, experimental evidence of close-mindedness, I will leave you, as I promised, to rehearse your own stale pseudo-arguments to yourself.

[fpb]

So you snatch one pseudo-mistake that was incidental to my overall argument, use it to claim my entire comment is meaningless, and call me less than an idiot (in no uncertain terms)? I guess I shouldn't have expected anything more.

Have fun feeling superior to everyone else.

-TealTerror

[fpb]

Oh God. Your argument is meaningless because it does not answer mine and has nothing to do with what I said. And you keep on talking to yourself. Again, again, again, you never answer anything. This is not a wholesome attitude. For one thing, I did not call you an idiot; I said that even an idiot who had actualy read my article would know that yours was not an answer; and I said you had not read it. So I did not call you an idiot. I did, and do, call you an echo-chamber dweller who only listens to him/herself.

[fpb]

I really, really, really should leave well enough alone, I know. I tried my best to discuss this with you reasonably, even through your continued insults, and failed. But the "someone is wrong on the internet" impulse is still too strong for me.

The argument in your article, from what I understand, is that women have, historically, had more freedoms in Western civilization than they had in other cultures. My response was that women were still historically oppressed--treated as second-class citizens--and that downplaying that oppression is worse than magnifying it.

If you didn't mean to call me an idiot, you wouldn't have added that delightful "and I do mean idiot" tag.

And for you to accuse others of being close-minded echo-chamber dwellers...

You know what? Forget it. Call me whatever the hell you want. I'm finished with this discussion.

-TealTerror

[fpb]

By the way, I don't intend to be caught again in the usual kind of rancorous outburst of loud and self-confident ignorance that I experienced so often in the past. If your mind is made up, don't bother answering, and if you do, I won't.

[fpb]

...famous last words. But I can't help reacting to the wellspring of absurdity and nonsense I seem to have uncorked.