False Idols and Integrity

[korinna]

This was co-written by me and seluecus, a queer MoC.The cross-section between geeks and those interested in social justice is large on Livejournal, and certain voices are considered particularly important re: their opinions on the relationship between geek culture and anti-oppression ideologies

Comments

[sakanagi]

This is an excellent post. Thanks to Korinna and Seluecus for writing it.

[mongoose_bite]

This is a discussion I'm very glad people are starting to have. SJ communities are nowhere near safe spaces. I love a good flamewar as much as the next person, but isn't the whole point of fighting oppression to stop hurting people? And I'm not talking about bigots being given a free pass or spoken softly to, I'm talking about the community silencing and eating its own.

And this isn't just about Neo or any one person, either. I've seen this cycle where an individual is lauded, then called out, then toppled from grace, and then never spoken of kindly again and someone takes their place.

[mongoose_bite]

Any ideas on a solution? You're smart, I've seen you around.

I think part of the problem is when we interact with people regarding SJ issues outside the community, we have to bring plenty of spoons and reasoned arguments and the rage comes naturally, and there's a kind of siege mentality that results. Arguments are almost always brutal, because we spend so much time butting our heads against the rest of the world who doesn't want to know and must be forced.

But it doesn't make for people who are particularly pleasant to have a conversation with. Especially one where differing opinions are aired. I've read quite a lot of Neo's articles on Ars Marginal because I find them interesting and useful. I also find some of the stuff he says problematic to say the least.

[azn_jack_fiend]

I'm not interested in defending neo_prodigy from charges of misogyny or erasure of queer women. I think he's got some major problems on that front and he's been making a LOT of inaccurate generalisations, some of which I've raised with him publicly before. But this post is really juvenile and pompous and personally offensive. "Unquestioning sycophants?" I'm a WOC and a feminist and I resent the manipulation that I'm supposed to line up on the purest side against misogyny every single time some conflict like this comes up, or else I'm some kind of mindless zombie. I make strategic choices all the time, in life and online, and I like reading neo's posts because he talks about issues like, say, Vincent Chin's anniversary, pretty important racial issues that I hear deafening silence on from predominantly white feminist quarters. I don't "follow" "SJ" "leaders" I listen to people and value diverse perspectives. I don't expect every woman to follow my exact decisions and priorities, or accept or overlook or reject the same things I do,

[pinkpolarity]

Um, you did see that the necrophilia thing is about someone else, right?

Someone in her ask box asked about whether necrophilia was okay, and she said that if the dead person consented before they died, she guessed it was.

[azn_jack_fiend]

Yes, I did. It's about some person who is not on LJ and has nothing to do with fandom or neo_prodigy so why are they on this post at all? Is it really that hard to comprehend that people who post a lot about controversial things tend to get popular on the internet? I can't believe it's even a point worth making here, so I can only conclude the case was thrown on simply for the OMG NECROPHILIA INCEST factor.

[reservoir]

No, I think Genderbitch is absolutely relevant here - she's one of the biggest examples of someone who's blindly followed on all of her ideas just because she's had some relevant thoughts on SJ issues and called a lot of people out. I think the shock factor IS important here. People go WAY too far on some things without thinking about what they're really defending.

[reservoir]

I think this is a really important reminder that everyone ought to heed - the fact that no one is infallible and at some point, is going to fuck up. It's important to engage critically and thoughtfully with people, and be willing and able to call out anyone's bullshit, no matter how "progressive" they've been before. I can't count the number of SJ allies that have all of a sudden blurted out some intense, hateful shit without thinking (myself included) - and then gotten upset when called on it.

Isn't it important to keep ourselves honest?

[menkui]

I don't understand why some people are saying this doesn't have a place here. Slashing is a part of the geek community and you have this person who wrote up a very sexist entry about that community which was well received. And there's the problem, people were so willing to get behind him and back him up for the social justice points and totally overlooked the blatant sexism. What korinna is doing with this post is reminding people to remain vigilant and don't blindly support someone for those sj points.

It's not like this is the first time this has happened. People did the same thing with gisei_nashi_ni. Even though she was crude, rude, and obnoxious others followed her because she did it all under the guise of social justice. So, yeah, I totally think this entry has a place here. Sometimes people need to be reminded to be wary, that there are wolves in sheep clothing.

[mythrai]

What [info]korinna is doing with this post is reminding people to remain vigilant and don't blindly support someone for those sj points.

Yes! Why are people who blog on social justice issues immune to the same kind of critiques we apply to TV or video games? You can enjoy or appreciate a show while acknowledging their problems, and you can absolutely do the same to bloggers as well.

[seiberwing]

People did the same thing with [info]gisei_nashi_ni.

Which actually happened in this community. That whole more-feminist-than-thou business actually triggered a few people, and I don't know if the mods ever did anything about it since my girlfriend never got a reply back when she put in a complaint.

Yeah, gnn was trolling, but I think we should take it as a lesson that sometimes the tone argument isn't completely invalid.

[korinna]

Sorry that happened. The other mods in this community are extremely busy, and I was still on hiatus when GNN derailed that post.