Inception
I did not post about Inception when I first saw it in the theater, because I just thought it was nonsensical bullshit. I mean, yes, it made sense superficially, but I suspected it would fall apart like a house of cards upon closer inspection. Having now acquired my own personal copy, I am even more suspicious.
If other people agree (ETA: or disagree!) that it's internally inconsistent (and by "people" I mean LJ people, not the fanboys who spent the opening weekend tersely arguing with each other in various wild and woolly fora), and aren't tired of talking about it months later, then I would be ever so grateful to read your thoughts!
Question 1:
Is the level after the snow fortress, where Leo and Ellen Page wash up on the shores of Leo's wrecked world, actually limbo, or is it just another dream (specifically, Cobb's dream)?
I ask this because it just doesn't make sense to me. I've seen a few arguments which follow my own thought process. The ones that stick in my mind:
- Argument 1: Because Saito ends up much older than Leo in limbo, which only makes sense if Saito died first (in the snow fortress) and entered limbo first. If you watch the movie, it looks like Leo and Ellen Page actually entered before Saito died. But this can't be right -- a more plausible explanation is that Leo didn't enter the real limbo until he drowned in the van (a compounded amount of time after Saito entered). Therefore, what you see Leo and Ellen Page in is not limbo but another dream level, and given that it's full of Cobb's and Mal's shit, it's got to be Cobb's dream.
Counter-argument: Maybe time just flows differently for each individual in limbo?
- Argument 2: Why does limbo still look like Leo and Mal's stuff rather than a completely shared space? For instance, Fischer was conscious even though bound and gagged. Also, how do they know it's really LIMBO -- has anyone else besides Leo and Mal been in it (we know that Leo's the only member of the team who has, not that he's the only one ever) and if so, why isn't any of their junk still lying around?
Follow-on point: I really dislike the idea of limbo being some universal, objective space which anyone and everyone can enter and share. I suspect this will be a point explored in Inception 2 if it ever comes to that. I also suspect Inception 2 will look rather a lot like The Matrix: Look! Someone who can change the Matrix I mean, alter dreams in fantastic and bendy ways without awakening the agents I mean, the projections!
Question 2:
Why did Ellen Page and Cillian Murphy have to fall off the porch in "limbo" in order to get kicked up to the next level?
By the movie's own explanation, kicking occurs from the level above the one you're in. If limbo is different, well then: when Mal and Leo got out of limbo they killed themselves and went right back to reality (also implied by Saito handling the gun on the table, immediately followed by Saito and Leo waking up on the plane). So why do the climactic scenes show Ellen Page waking up in each level? (She and Leo also explained this would be happening before they went into "limbo", something to the effect of: "We'll create a kick for Cillian in limbo and then ride the other kicks back up.")
Counter-argument: Maybe the movie just didn't show Mal, Leo and Saito waking up again on each level. Although, given Saito was probably dead on each level...
Question 3:
So, there was supposed to be a week of time left at the van level before the sedative wore off. Assuming the flight attendant was instructed to give them the full amount of time on the sedative (implied by the fact that when Leo woke up, she was all, "We're landing soon"), then how did the team kill time in the van level? Was Cillian's head still militarized and defensive?
Ah, I got nothin'. Probably fanfic's all over this one anyway.
Aaaannd I think that's about as much head banging against wall as I want to do.
But speaking of fanfic, I read one "how Arthur/Eames met" story by mirabella which I guess works as canon for me, although far too short, and I want to dip into Cobb/Saito next ("when we were young men together" indeed!). But it seems like the majority of stuff with high delicious numbers is AU fic. Huh? With all the imaginative places you could take this source material, why are college/Regency/stripper fics the popular destinations?
Actually, wait. Stupid question. You'd think I was new or something.
If other people agree (ETA: or disagree!) that it's internally inconsistent (and by "people" I mean LJ people, not the fanboys who spent the opening weekend tersely arguing with each other in various wild and woolly fora), and aren't tired of talking about it months later, then I would be ever so grateful to read your thoughts!
Question 1:
Is the level after the snow fortress, where Leo and Ellen Page wash up on the shores of Leo's wrecked world, actually limbo, or is it just another dream (specifically, Cobb's dream)?
I ask this because it just doesn't make sense to me. I've seen a few arguments which follow my own thought process. The ones that stick in my mind:
- Argument 1: Because Saito ends up much older than Leo in limbo, which only makes sense if Saito died first (in the snow fortress) and entered limbo first. If you watch the movie, it looks like Leo and Ellen Page actually entered before Saito died. But this can't be right -- a more plausible explanation is that Leo didn't enter the real limbo until he drowned in the van (a compounded amount of time after Saito entered). Therefore, what you see Leo and Ellen Page in is not limbo but another dream level, and given that it's full of Cobb's and Mal's shit, it's got to be Cobb's dream.
Counter-argument: Maybe time just flows differently for each individual in limbo?
- Argument 2: Why does limbo still look like Leo and Mal's stuff rather than a completely shared space? For instance, Fischer was conscious even though bound and gagged. Also, how do they know it's really LIMBO -- has anyone else besides Leo and Mal been in it (we know that Leo's the only member of the team who has, not that he's the only one ever) and if so, why isn't any of their junk still lying around?
Follow-on point: I really dislike the idea of limbo being some universal, objective space which anyone and everyone can enter and share. I suspect this will be a point explored in Inception 2 if it ever comes to that. I also suspect Inception 2 will look rather a lot like The Matrix: Look! Someone who can change the Matrix I mean, alter dreams in fantastic and bendy ways without awakening the agents I mean, the projections!
Question 2:
Why did Ellen Page and Cillian Murphy have to fall off the porch in "limbo" in order to get kicked up to the next level?
By the movie's own explanation, kicking occurs from the level above the one you're in. If limbo is different, well then: when Mal and Leo got out of limbo they killed themselves and went right back to reality (also implied by Saito handling the gun on the table, immediately followed by Saito and Leo waking up on the plane). So why do the climactic scenes show Ellen Page waking up in each level? (She and Leo also explained this would be happening before they went into "limbo", something to the effect of: "We'll create a kick for Cillian in limbo and then ride the other kicks back up.")
Counter-argument: Maybe the movie just didn't show Mal, Leo and Saito waking up again on each level. Although, given Saito was probably dead on each level...
Question 3:
So, there was supposed to be a week of time left at the van level before the sedative wore off. Assuming the flight attendant was instructed to give them the full amount of time on the sedative (implied by the fact that when Leo woke up, she was all, "We're landing soon"), then how did the team kill time in the van level? Was Cillian's head still militarized and defensive?
Ah, I got nothin'. Probably fanfic's all over this one anyway.
Aaaannd I think that's about as much head banging against wall as I want to do.
But speaking of fanfic, I read one "how Arthur/Eames met" story by mirabella which I guess works as canon for me, although far too short, and I want to dip into Cobb/Saito next ("when we were young men together" indeed!). But it seems like the majority of stuff with high delicious numbers is AU fic. Huh? With all the imaginative places you could take this source material, why are college/Regency/stripper fics the popular destinations?
Actually, wait. Stupid question. You'd think I was new or something.