the continuing conversation

[hesychasm]

I get so tired of seeing the same defenses and pleas for understanding on behalf of people who fuck up and show their ignorant, racist asses. She didn't know. She didn't intend any harm. What we need here is forebearance and compassion so everyone can learn something. Why do you have to be so rude about someone who made an honest mistake. She

Comments

[nestra]

The tone argument will never die. Never. It will always be the offended person's responsibility to be moderate, calm, and gentle. It will always be more important that the offender "didn't mean to."

I'll be honest. I got angry about this as soon as I saw a post about it, but I didn't get insanely angry until someone's post triggered the realization that the author was working on this while people WERE STILL DYING. And they are still dying, just of less immediate causes. That's what broke me.

[hesychasm]

Yeah. On a good day I understand people being initially taken aback by what they perceive as attack mode and I just find the tone argument ignorant rather than infuriating. But this has not been a good day and I am tired.

There is all kinds of WTF was she thinking?? about this situation. And all I can think of is the speculation that she just didn't see them as real people. It's natural to feel less strongly for people and situations that are distant from you physically and contextually. But there's such a huge difference between, say, idly watching a news report about Haiti and thinking "hey! best idea ever!" Bah.

[cereta]

It will always be the offended person's responsibility not to say anything. I got called angry and attacking when I was being as diplomatic as I know how to be (and hi, rhetorician) so often that I finally got the idea.

I hate the tone argument with EVERY FIBER OF MY BEING.

[spiletta42]

One of the reasons that the tone argument will never die is that some people in fandom tend to foam at the mouth and recruit mobs (or sockpuppets) over trivial crap, and so people get so sick of the seemingly constant wanking that they lump those upset over actual issues in with the rest.

And by trivial crap I mean not crediting icon makers, or bitching over whether some pairing is canon or not, or any of the assorted petty personal vendettas that arise when large groups of people interact in a confined space.

And by actual issues I mean racism, sexism, homophobia, victim blaming, human rights issues, just generally giving a damn about hurting other people through carelessness, and all of the other things that actually matter outside of fandom.

[yeloson]

How about I ask why the hell you still need to be taught?

Usually, demanding to be taught is a good sign they weren't interested in learning in the first place, and the claim of ignorance is just another form of the "intention" argument.

To which, I say, "At what point does it go from being an 'accident' to intentional? If you stab someone twice? 82 times?" because they do the same thing right again.

[hesychasm]

Exactly. Each iteration of racefail makes it seem more and more ridiculous that people can still protest their ignorance and demand to be taught. The least you can do is get on goddamn Google before ringing my bell, jesus! This is why I rarely engage publicly in these discussions -- just can't play when the other side is ultimately going to show their bad faith.

[yeloson]

And they do it over and over and over.

[minim_calibre]

I get so, so tired every time it happens. How is this basically an annual event in this fandom? (It's one reason why my posts on subjects like this are now comments off.)

[hesychasm]

I DO NOT KNOW what it is about J2. Like, seriously. I think those boys must give off subliminal messages through their skin cells instructing people to act like idiots. The sheer size of the blinders some fans in this fandom sport is mindboggling.

[minim_calibre]

It's at the point where, if I were running a ficathon or exchange or anything (which will happen about when there are snowballs in Hell, with my current schedule) that could possibly contain J2, if I made *no other rules* explicit, I would make one for "no appropriation of tragedies not your own for window dressing." with specific examples of previous iterations of the same damn thing.

[katharine_b]

Yeah. I really really hate it when anyone is upset at me and I can't imagine what it would be like to be the one facing down angry commenters. But it's horrifying how eager people are to pathologize the outrage/yelling rather than admit that they might have done something to cause that outrage.

If I'm ever in a similar situation, I hope to god that I'll respond better, and if I do, it will largely be because of what I've learned from fandom.

I agree with you totally. Thank you for speaking up about this, tired as you are.

[hesychasm]

As I was saying to nestra above, on a good day I completely understand how difficult it is to accept criticism gracefully, especially when it's as loud and angry as this has been. But today I am too tired to try. (And I find that each time I post publicly about racism I get grumpier and grumpier.)

I've made my share of mistakes in discussions like this (and even catalogued some in one of said previous posts) and I hope as well that the next time it happens, I'll be able to respond like a champ.

[hesychasm]

Thanks -- I have not been much of an LJ participant lately because of the usual work/life craziness and I actually wasn't planning to post anything publicly when I caught wind of this stuff, because I am cynical and tired. But the one thing I absolutely HATED about the earlier round in 2007 was all the people who demanded sympathy for the author, that we all use a gentler tone, use the opportunity to educate, etc. I totally think mistakes can be forgiven and used as teaching moments or whatever, but to demand it, as if the perpetrator is the victim? COULD NOT let that go.