oh great, a rant

[hesychasm]

I would really rather not have to rehash the whole "Is slash misogynist?" discussion, but apparently I now can't tell the difference between an unflattering portrait of a female character, and making her act out-of-character in order to push two boy characters together.

Comments

[copracat]

You make me yearn for a story where Harry and Ron end up together and it just guts Hermione and that leads them all to grief, because she is their best friend. I would then have to read about fifty H/R/Hr stories to make up for it.

scoradh's response was remarkable. You don't see that kind of grace very often. After your earlier post I thought you'd be flamed like a fiyah.

[hesychasm]

LOL. There's actually a really interesting story called Synergy in which Hermione, already in a relationship with Ron, tries to be open to him also having a relationship with Harry. It doesn't really end in a happy H/R/Hr resolution (well, I don't think it does, but I like to think I was reading between the lines *g*).

She really was awesome about it. My first post could have been so much more civil about the whole deal.

[kerryblaze]

I ♥ you so much right now. There is nothing more exciting than reading comments and seeing your fic mentioned! ;)

Actually, I am very pro-trio. However, for the context of that story, I felt that Hermione suddenly realizing OMG I've known Harry as long as Ron but I suddenly want to have wild passionate monkeysex w/him just wasn't believable. BUT... I'd like to think that I left it open for them to develop a physical relationship.

I read the story in question minutes after it was posted and I came very close to hitting the back button because of the characterization of Hermione. The next day I sat down and started to right a fic to finish a series that I had been working on. It's H/R and it's called Hermione is always right. *wink*

[hesychasm]

Hee! I have actually talked up your story elsewhere, although now for the life of me I can't remember where it was. If I didn't leave feedback for it, I am very sorry, but chalk it up to the fact that I'm still thinking about it. Because it really does present a picture of the trio that made me THINK -- it was sort of painful in how much more realistic it was, that Hermione would NOT necessarily be okay with that arrangement, and that she and Harry might NOT automatically want to have sex with each other and wrap everything up in an equilateral triangle of happy domestic bliss. It was a sort of unbalanced realism that I hadn't really seen in triofic before (I can think of just one story where it was obvious once they all got into bed that Harry was more of an outsider, but it was very subtle and a lot of the other commenters didn't even pick up on it), or that I hadn't thought I could enjoy. In fact, I'm still not sure I enjoyed it -- as I said, it was painful (but in the best sort of way). And so it's just been sort of sitting

[laurashapiro]

Dude, I was singing this song 9 years ago in XF fandom!

I'm not surprised this problem hasn't gone away. I think misogyny is part of the equation, but as you point out, people will demonize a male character to get their het couple together, so I don't think it's the whole story. I think it's deeper than that.

I think people prefer to think in simple binaries. "If I love X, I must hate Y." "If X is wonderful, Y must suck." "If X doesn't want to be with Y, but would rather be with Z, then Y must naturally go into a psychotic rage and do everything possible to destroy X and Z's relationship." (For further detail on that, visit Due South's Ray Wars.)

It's crazy troll logic, that's for sure. But it seems to fit happily in the average fangirl's comfort zone. I've never really grokked it, myself.

[hesychasm]

I agree that it's a fucked up love equation that isn't necessarily gender-bound, but it just rings as all the more problematic to me when it's a female character. So I'm irrational about it. It was a rant, not an academic treatise. (g)

[laurashapiro]

Hey, I hear you. And like I said, I do see the misogyny.

[viciouswishes]

I see that in lot of stories; it doesn't matter if they're slash or het. They just have to be ones where they need to break up a canon pairing to get X and Y together.

[cereta]

*clapclapclapclap*

I remember saying a while back that the first Batslasher who demonized Barbara got my six 6 1/2 boot in their ass. I've been pretty pleased with how SGA slash has handled the women characters, although I suspect that's largely because really, no one's being pushed as a seriously love interest for anyone (which is my favorite setting for almost any source - I prefer to get my romance from fan fiction, which is weird). The discussion, not so much, and there's some stuff there that makes me deeply uncomfortable at times.

But yeah, I well remember the Carolyn-bashing in TS, the Cassandra-hate in Highlander (how dare she want revenge on Methos just because he slaughtered her village and raped her and kept her prisoner?), and so many others.

[hesychasm]

Your examples are depressing because it just shows what a perpetual problem this is. Like Laura said, it happens with any sort of third character outside of a pairing, regardless of gender, but I wish fandom, being majority female, would be more careful with its female characters. But oh, this just gets into so many personal issues and societal issues which have all been hashed to death before, and yet if they have been hashed to death, why does it KEEP HAPPENING?

I suppose this goes back to my rant about fandom's lack of institutional memory.... Ugh, so frustrating.

[franzeska]

It doesn't seem like a fandom problem to me. It seems like a fan problem and one of society in general. I can't tell you how many fellow fans I know who find other women deeply threatening in any context (not just when they want a character to go away so the slash can happen). I can't tell you how many arguments I've had about whether canonical female love interests were "mary sues" just because the hero liked them and they had a few talents.

In my experience, many of the people who seek out geeky passtimes and friends are deeply insecure, rejected by society, unattractive by conventional standards, or whathaveyou. I don't think improved institutional memory will solve their underlying problems or make society treat them better.

Sometimes it's just sloppy writing, and then a gentle reminder might help, but far too often, that type of fic stems from personal issues the author may not be overly aware of.

female fans' insecurities

[hesychasm]

Yeah, it's sort of what I was getting at with "personal and societal issues" in the comment above, but I just...HATE psychoanalyzing fans when it comes to things like socialized misogyny, you know? The first time I really got into this whole discussion, back in the day, it was because someone had put forward the justification that attractive female characters were perceived as threats. And that's always rankled me, because it's both really sad and really frustrating (because obviously, it's a difficult and daunting prospect trying to make fans get over their own insecurities).

I try to give fans the benefit of the doubt about this kind of thing, and not assume it's because of those sorts of issues, but even the author of the fic I linked mentioned being burned by conventional standards of heterosexual attractiveness. And beyond making her (and other fans) aware that's bullshit, you just can't do much about that.

[hesychasm]

Your reasoning, while of course spot-on, is depressing as hell. I'm in HP fandom because I love the source material, but this constant need to reinvent the wheel is just.... I'm too much of a BOFQ to wait for all the rest of them to become BOFQs.

[copracat]

I'm too much of a BOFQ to wait for all the rest of them to become BOFQs.

rofl rofl rofl! I think I love you.

[vaznetti]

I am only here to say WORD. I have nothing else to contribute to this discussion.

[hesychasm]

Thank you. (g)