Thoughts on FISA

[harryh]

So, as most of you are aware, the US Senate passed a bill yesterday that, among other things, gives the Telcos immunity against privacy lawsuits they are facing after they (possibly illegally) assisted the US gov't in various wiretapping schemes over the last couple of years. In particular, the liberal blogosphere is up in arms as the fact that

Comments

[evan]

Lessig says it isn't bad, but doesn't explain why: http://lessig.org/blog/2008/07/selfswiftboating.html

I imagine it's less about the issue at hand and more about the precedent it sets. We want there to be incentives in place so that when the government tells you to do something illegal you have pressure to refuse. (It's just monetary penalties at stake, which suck for businesses but don't put anyone in jail.)

[gfrancie]

So there is something to be said for (as usual) for looking at the entire context of any situation before passing judgment. "OMG OBAMA CHANGED!"
I wonder how many people look at the entire situation and full story vs. the newbite and some wankers opinion.

[queen_elvis]

No liability for breaking the law + government actively colluding to break the law = no accountability whatsoever = no protections for individuals.

I do agree that the focus ought to be on throwing the bastards out rather than on suing the telcos, but throwing the bastards out is a great deal harder and against Congress's interests.

[loic]

If the executive can break the law and instruct others to break the law with impunity, then everything is fucked. That's way more fucked up than changing the law to be a bad law. If your representatives make a bad law you can elect different people who will make better laws. If there's a precedent of laws being willfully violated and then pardons being issued why would anyone bother obeying the law?

[harryh]

> If the executive can break the law and instruct others to
> break the law with impunity, then everything is fucked.

True. But who is the main culprit here? It's the executive, not the othere (in this case the telcos). They were just doing what they were told (probably with some legitimate fear that if they didn't they would be fucked with by the gov't in some way).

The correct solution to this problem is to punish the executive. Which is what will happen this Nov. when we see a Dem elected President along with a Dem route in Congress.

That's my thinking anyways.

[loic]

I've never been comfortable with the "I was just following orders" defense.

If the telcos receive serious financial punishment it will discourage others form engaging in illegal activity at the request of the government.

Personally (as a foreign national not protected under FISA but subject to the whims of the Department of Homeland Security), I'll be more excited to see the private individuals and private companies who've been employed to violate international law (torture, rendition, aggressive war, murder of civilians, etc) hauled up in front of international courts if they ever travel outside of the country. There's been a lot of really bad shit going on and we need to stand up to it and punish those who were committing these atrocities.

[billyfleetwood]

My main problem with the "just doing what they were told" excuse comes from working for and with big companies with big legal departments. I think the general public imagines a scenario involving a person asking another person to do something, and view the idea of "illegal" in the abstract

[billyfleetwood]

I've been really cranky about this all week.

People are getting all outrage-y over the immunity portion, because that's the easiest part to understand. Blame and punishment dont require much thought. This whole election, everyone seems to be missing the bigger picture of the problems with this administration, and the shitty political culture that has taken hold since 2000. On both sides of the aisle. You can't get mad at someone for not driving in a straight line if the car only has two wheels.

I still think something needs to be done to drive home the point that the office of the president != The US Government. I think they should have immunity, but that immunity should somehow have been tied to making things right, not to sweeping things under the rug.