Saidisms Redux and Others' Craft Postings

[harmony_bites]

I've posted on the use of saidisms before, but for those who missed it, my post on it can be found here. Why am I bringing this up again? Because keket_amunet posted tangentally on the subject here and it caused a lively discussion I thought might be of interest if you want to hear both sides of this debate. (Though I remain on Keket's side on this one-as do

Comments

[misstee123]

Wow...(three ellipses, note) it got a little heated over at keket's LJ for a while. To tell the truth, I'm not sure where I fall, but being a newbie (meaning that I should apparently go throw myself off a cliff), my feeling would be that if everything else is in place, I guess I just don't notice them, but if everything is off kilter to begin with, a misplaced saidism just become one more thing to notice. You've said it before - you've got to know the rules before you can break them.

"I'm going to ride the fence on this one," misstee sneered.
No...let me try again...
Impatiently tossing her hair to the side, misstee said, "I'm going to ride the fence on this one."
No...screw it...they're both bad.

Thanks as always for your posts! If nothing else comes from them, they make me go back and take another look at what I write, which is always a good thing to do. :-)

[harmony_bites]

Wow...(three ellipses, note)

LOL. Sometimes 4. It depends on what grammar book or style manual you look at. One thing I do like about The Petulant Poetess is that they do lay their cards on the table about their grammar rules. You can find their guide on the use of the ellipsis here if you're curious.

I do agree btw that I notice neither saidisms or comma placement or some of the niceties of grammar if the story-telling is strong. It's only when the writing is less than stellar that it's drip ... drip ... drip.

And we all started out as newbies--all look back at some of our older stuff and wince. All of us. So for any of us to say newbies can't learn--or that we don't have more to learn ourselves doesn't hold water imo.

[mollyssister]

Hello! I read your recommendation on Potter Place for Destruction Where You Stand by Auberus & went to take a look for myself. I am very glad I did. I am a HG/SS shipper and I loath Sirius. But you were right! This story is engaging and just sucks the reader right in. I find myself smiling with Lucius and Narcissa's marriage. The world has tilted on end with this story! Thanks so much for the hint!

[harmony_bites]

It's funny isn't it? Cuz I'm right with you. I'm a hardcore SS/HG shipper and I loathe and despise Sirius--if someone had described that story to me, I would have said "pass" I didn't want to like it--but once I clicked...

[wartcap]

I'm just against anything that takes away someone's creativity. Give a child a crayon and let them draw. Give a woman a word doc and let her write. Strunk and White, or Shrunk and White, whatever it's called should be ripped up and used for kitty litter. If I thought one person had been put off writing by that LJ post I'd be so upset.

In England in the late 70s writing as a subject was changed to 'creative writing'. We weren't told what was right or wrong, and certainly there were no grammar rules to be followed, we just wrote. I find all this very foreign indeed.

[harmony_bites]

I don't think its stiffling creativity to caution against saidisms--its the opposite. If you constantly use them, you're being lazy imo, going the quick way instead of being forced to be creative.

You know what I think really stiffles creativity in the fandom and discourages writers? All the niggling rules about grammar.

keket_amunet and I are just sharing a point about craft--one that many editors agree on and it would be useful for those with pro ambitions to know. But neither of us have much power in this fandom. We don't own websites, we're don't admin, and when it comes to any following we have we're very, very small fish and in my case I can say I'm likely to remain so. But when a newbie encounters the moderated archives and is told they can't do run-ons or comma splices or use commas CREATIVELY to show rhythm in dialogue or rhetorically--when their stories come back rejected because of comma usagethat I think truly stiffles creativity--not being told they shouldn't wear out the thesaurus looking for subsitutes for said

[wartcap]

I wouldn't have known a saidism from a bowl of soup, but I went back and looked at the first piece of fiction I ever wrote (ch1 of Vanity) and I didn't use them even back then. Does this mean I have a different perspective on this matter? If I do use them they are set up in the text beforehand and don't just come up and bite your bottom!

Is it like when you're reading dialogue and then all of a sudden you read , he shouted? You weren't expecting it, and you read it as. 'Yes, mother,' Tim SHOUTED. Cos that to me is really bad because the emphasis is all wrong for the reader. Now, I'm not ed-ja-kated in how to write, but do it from instinct. I know what's right without having to use a manual. Maybe this is why I don't appreciate flogging the subject in discussion? For me it comes from the heart.

[harmony_bites]

I think what disturbs me about your comment and some of the ones I've heard in chat on the LJ post is this stuff about how some newbie might be discouraged by it

[saltfish_swims]

Thanks for these posts. I always get a lot out of them

[saltfish_swims]

My favorite writers do tend to obey the rules you have alluded to in your posts (apart from JKR, I guess).

and just to clarify this comment, I meant published authors. Although I have read some authors' whose work I have enjoyed and they break rules too.

But, again, in the scheme of things, the really talented writers are the exception (which in my mind includes SW69, Wartcap and Shiv), so it's really hard to base a rule on what the exception do and can get away with. For the rest of us, rules are useful.

[harmony_bites]

But, again, in the scheme of things, the really talented writers are the exception (which in my mind includes SW69, Wartcap and Shiv), so it's really hard to base a rule on what the exception do and can get away with. For the rest of us, rules are useful.

I don't believe rules are for "the rest of us" Either this is a good writing precept and *gasp* even the above writers can learn from them or it truly is rubbish--for all of us. But good pro writers will tell you they're always learning and aren't closed to discussion of technique - not the ones that grow. There's no royal BNF road to good writing.

[saltfish_swims]

LOL, I know you're right.

Like I've said elsewhere here on your journal, I get a lot out of your posts (and that one of keket's); they help me. But whatever is said exceptions can be found and will be argued about, so it's like having a disclaimer.

And ditto what you said about JKR, I've heard that elsewhere too. Surprising really for someone who, I believe, worked in publishing.

[wolf_moonshadow]

Hmmm, do I dare admit that I intentionally added a saidism in my last drabble set? It just seemed to fit, and I didn't feel like taking out another sentence simply to make room for the additional words it would take to convey the same impression. But 100 word drabs are a special, contrived situation, I admit. In most cases I do agree with you. I still recall one of my Creative Lit instructors referring to such 'tricks' as a fine spice - a very small amount may enhance, but too much will be ruinous.

[harmony_bites]

Especially, I think, when people dip the entire bottle into the stew.

And yes, I do think the problem with drabs is sometimes you do take shortcuts that damage the story you're trying to tell. Believe me, I know--not just because of my drabs, but cuz I just posted a story where I set a self-imposed limit of 500 words exactly per scene. I choose that for many of the same reasons I like doing drabs--forcing me to be as precise and economical as possible--but...