Oh speaking of the story, I did my best with the dashes, but they're hard to keep all the same... And hard to see in Word (especially in Courier Final Draft which is pretty much the only font I can deal with) :( I'm going back to the double hyphen. It was only Phoenix at TPP who put me off that anyway.
I've no clue (or so little) about English grammar, so if I say a stupid thing, forgive me -what I'm going to say might not be valid in English.
That's "bad grammar" but effective writing
well, I think he's right. Great writers (now classical) brushed it aside more often than never. (too much punctuation, fragments, too long sentence (even a paragraph-long sentence). But they knew what they were doing. Today their manuscript would be rejected by common grammar standards. so, I'm think that grammar rules are for kids (or people learning languages) but once you use the language masterfully, you can do as you wish.
I'm think that grammar rules are for kids (or people learning languages) but once you use the language masterfully, you can do as you wish.
Grammar's a tool. I'll say this for the archive validation process--it has caused me to dive into the grammar books and make sure I really know the rules--and I think it can only make me a stronger writer--because I think to do it well, you do need to know the rules first.
But yes--the comma splice, the sentence fragment, even the passive voice all have their place. In Lukeman's book he even writes about how omitting commas in dialogue can help indicate someone speaking all in one breath or a hurried manner.
But you don't want to overdue the rule-breaking to the point of eccentricity--because you do that you're just going to make it hard for a reader to comprehend, and dilute your effects.
Almost all beginning fanficers are guilty of this. But I had an object lesson in Trek. The worst writer I've ever known--notorious among us--she was often MSTed behind her back in Trek abused elipses and italics outrageous. And in Trek, where we didn't have archives but newsgroups and Yahoo groups, we had to write in plain text. That meant italics were represented by asterisks. Seeing this was inspiration enough to start being a lot more strict with myself.
thanks for the tips, they really are good.
Oh Goodie. I think I've covered the three worse things now. I'll scrounge around my handbook for more though. So much of the advice in there is too good not to share.
Yes, I know Rowling uses all caps--I find it--childish.
How on earth her editors let her get away with this, I don't know. Do they think kids are so influenced by netspeak that they don't know the meanng of ! or 'he screamed'?
How on earth her editors let her get away with this, I don't know.
They didn't--not at first. Her first book was rejected repeatedly by publishers and agents alike. I suspect her style hurt. And afterwards, once she made millions, who'd dare correct her?
And I think novels are move forgiving of this. The short story market is so brutal--my friend was competing against thousands of submission for one of 23 slots--that they are far less forgiving.
Do they think kids are so influenced by netspeak that they don't know the meanng of ! or 'he screamed'?
Kids often like these kind of over the top effects though. It was pointed out to me by Dyce, that she remembers as a child being charmed by dialect being represented with the kind of contractions and misspellings used for Fleur and Hagrid.
But for an adult, it grates. And it just annoys me how uncritically HP fanficers follow Rowling when it comes to style--forgetting that on the net they're addressing themselves to an adult audience.
Oooh...a post I don't have to feel so guilty about. :)
Although I am guilty of the italics use, but the explanation of aural writers makes me feel a bit better. I also tend to write for stage--heavy on the dialogue and short on description. That's why I have Danae. She's very descriptive. And poetic, to boot.
I might make a "helpful tips" catalog of stuff you post just in case I ever decide to do any original creative writing. Unfortunately, however, my forte is academic writing, and the rules and style are pretty rigid. I'm here in fanfic to try to flex my creative muscles again and maybe even find a voice while I'm at it. Then I'll write my play, and you can all say you knew me when...
Although I am guilty of the italics use, but the explanation of aural writers makes me feel a bit better.
Italics is standard btw to express direct thought--though you don't want to overdo it. Among other things, not only does it call attention to itself, its hard to read.
the explanation of aural writers makes me feel a bit better.
Although again, not something to be overdone.
I know of a fanfic writer who boasts she uses punctuation as "musical notation." I tried her stories--I didn't find them very readable. My brain kept trying to supply the commas I knew had to be there by the rules. And gimmicky, mannered writing is something else editors and agents enveigh against time after time.
Thing is though--there's far more gray area with comma use than I think most archives recognize. I see that more having actually studied the rules.
There's a pretty firm rule, for instance, against seperating a subject from its predicate (verb) with a comma. Some grammars give the rule w/o exception. Then you turn to the Chicago Manual, which
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Thanks for the tips. :)
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Heh--maybe this one bears a bit of expansion--from Lukeman's book (you'd love him on commas btw...):
An abundance of question marks in the first pages--particularly in the first paragraph--nearly always indicates amateur or melodramatic writing
He basically means rhetorical questions given his examples.
So where's the dmhgficexchange story? I've been looking...
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Rhetrical questions, huh? Like my big paragraph o' questions during Hermione's breakdown? ;)
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That's "bad grammar" but effective writing
well, I think he's right. Great writers (now classical) brushed it aside more often than never. (too much punctuation, fragments, too long sentence (even a paragraph-long sentence). But they knew what they were doing. Today their manuscript would be rejected by common grammar standards. so, I'm think that grammar rules are for kids (or people learning languages) but once you use the language masterfully, you can do as you wish.
Reply
Grammar's a tool. I'll say this for the archive validation process--it has caused me to dive into the grammar books and make sure I really know the rules--and I think it can only make me a stronger writer--because I think to do it well, you do need to know the rules first.
But yes--the comma splice, the sentence fragment, even the passive voice all have their place. In Lukeman's book he even writes about how omitting commas in dialogue can help indicate someone speaking all in one breath or a hurried manner.
But you don't want to overdue the rule-breaking to the point of eccentricity--because you do that you're just going to make it hard for a reader to comprehend, and dilute your effects.
But it is known as creative writing for a reason.
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thanks for the tips, they really are good.
Oh Goodie. I think I've covered the three worse things now. I'll scrounge around my handbook for more though. So much of the advice in there is too good not to share.
Reply
How on earth her editors let her get away with this, I don't know. Do they think kids are so influenced by netspeak that they don't know the meanng of ! or 'he screamed'?
Reply
They didn't--not at first. Her first book was rejected repeatedly by publishers and agents alike. I suspect her style hurt. And afterwards, once she made millions, who'd dare correct her?
And I think novels are move forgiving of this. The short story market is so brutal--my friend was competing against thousands of submission for one of 23 slots--that they are far less forgiving.
Do they think kids are so influenced by netspeak that they don't know the meanng of ! or 'he screamed'?
Kids often like these kind of over the top effects though. It was pointed out to me by Dyce, that she remembers as a child being charmed by dialect being represented with the kind of contractions and misspellings used for Fleur and Hagrid.
But for an adult, it grates. And it just annoys me how uncritically HP fanficers follow Rowling when it comes to style--forgetting that on the net they're addressing themselves to an adult audience.
Reply
Although I am guilty of the italics use, but the explanation of aural writers makes me feel a bit better. I also tend to write for stage--heavy on the dialogue and short on description. That's why I have Danae. She's very descriptive. And poetic, to boot.
I might make a "helpful tips" catalog of stuff you post just in case I ever decide to do any original creative writing. Unfortunately, however, my forte is academic writing, and the rules and style are pretty rigid. I'm here in fanfic to try to flex my creative muscles again and maybe even find a voice while I'm at it. Then I'll write my play, and you can all say you knew me when...
Reply
Italics is standard btw to express direct thought--though you don't want to overdo it. Among other things, not only does it call attention to itself, its hard to read.
the explanation of aural writers makes me feel a bit better.
Although again, not something to be overdone.
I know of a fanfic writer who boasts she uses punctuation as "musical notation." I tried her stories--I didn't find them very readable. My brain kept trying to supply the commas I knew had to be there by the rules. And gimmicky, mannered writing is something else editors and agents enveigh against time after time.
Thing is though--there's far more gray area with comma use than I think most archives recognize. I see that more having actually studied the rules.
There's a pretty firm rule, for instance, against seperating a subject from its predicate (verb) with a comma. Some grammars give the rule w/o exception. Then you turn to the Chicago Manual, which ( ... )
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PS: and I really need these grammar/style/writing tips!!!
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