Comments | harmony_bites: Craft 1: On Saidisms

harmony_bites

Craft 1: On Saidisms

Jun 27, 2006 00:45

I'm probably a voice that's crying in the wilderness on this one, but I see it so much, and have had enough questions about it, that I thought I might as well put it in a post to have handy--what they are, and what editors think of them (as in, quick way to rejection pile). And that may not be what you care about in fanfic. It isn't with me--I'm ( Read more... )

craft, writing, publishing

Comments 26

mugglegirl0908 June 27 2006, 05:43:54 UTC

Thank you for writing this! I look forward to all of these helpful hints. I really liked this one. I admit I am absolutely guilty of this one, and am trying to cure myself of this habit.

And it really is a habit! Half the time I don't even realize I'm doing it.

harmony_bites June 27 2006, 06:55:20 UTC

Thank you for writing this! I look forward to all of these helpful hints.

Hmmm--so I shouldn't stop at just one? This one comes up a lot in HP though--I think cuz Rowling does it so much.

I admit I am absolutely guilty of this one, and am trying to cure myself of this habit.

So am I actually--as I said, I was in fact if anything pointing it up. But that friend who published those two stories? Well, I didn't think she wanted to beta my HP, but turns out she does. So she just finished betaing those six chapters of my WIP. Lets just say I got slapped rather smartly on the wrist. Ouch.

And it really is a habit! Half the time I don't even realize I'm doing it.

Its easy to fall into--but since I'm talking the talk, I guess that means from here on end I'll have to walk the walk?

You don't have to scrub all of them out--no one I think but the hardliner Elmore Leonard would do that--hard to convey volume especially w/o it--things like whispered or shouted - but some writers think finding all sorts of substitutes for "said" is a good ( ... )

argosy June 27 2006, 06:34:59 UTC

I did read this when you emailed it earlier, and I am mostly convinced. We'll see. :)

harmony_bites June 27 2006, 06:49:20 UTC

I did read this when you emailed it earlier, and I am mostly convinced. We'll see. :)

LOL. I didn't do it because of that (after all, as you said, I did email it). Lets just say you're not the first I've had this convo with, and I have a feeling not the last--next time I can just point to the URL and not attach;-)

argosy June 27 2006, 07:13:42 UTC

In screenwriting we call them "wrylies", as in something like:

LEIA
I love you.

HAN
(wryly)
I know.

or (sadly) or (angrily) or whatever. And it is understood that they are a big no-no, except when you need them. So it's always a good idea to get your words as precise as possible, i suppose, but sometimes I think you're going to need a saidism or swiftie for clarity's sake if nothing else.

P.S. Ever read A Prayer for Owen Meany? But that doesn't actually count because the caps were a stylistic thing -- and hysterical. :)

harmony_bites June 27 2006, 07:50:08 UTC

So it's always a good idea to get your words as precise as possible, i suppose, but sometimes I think you're going to need a saidism or swiftie for clarity's sake if nothing else.

I think even the hardcore on this will concede you need it at times--this, again, is from Self-Editing, page 51

There are a few exceptions to this principle--almost all of them adverbs that actually modify the verb "said," such as "he said softly" or "she said clearly." After all, you don't say something grimly in the same sense that you say something softy.The problems with saidisms, I think, come in three flavors. The first are those that are physically impossible - those are inarguably a bad idea - like noding or smiling words--or hissing them when there's no 's' in sight ( ... )

gnatkip June 27 2006, 10:49:13 UTC

"Excellent," Gnat asserted comprehendingly.

harmony_bites June 27 2006, 20:59:14 UTC

"Ah, good," Harmony hissed appreciatively.

clare009 June 27 2006, 11:57:18 UTC

You know, I think my problems with it stem from my english teachers at school who taught us that we needed to throw in adverbs and alternate words for said to spice things up. Ugh. Now its so hard to break myself of that habit.

harmony_bites June 27 2006, 21:03:38 UTC

I know--and ironically adverbs in general--their overuse and misuse are cited again and again by editors as reasons for rejection. I got a book by an editor and literary agent, cited above, and overuse and misuse of adverbs in general is cited as second only to presentation (things like strange fonts, overuse of italics, bold, underlining, exclamation marks, question marks, etc) as a reason for rejection at a glance.

snarkywench_64 June 27 2006, 14:19:45 UTC

You know...

I don't think I ever use the word "said."

I think I've gotten into such a habit of trying to convey the scene, the emotions, everything through description, that I've failed to let the dialogue carry the load.

**ponders**

I can remember reading JKR and thinking, "Boy, she uses 'said' an awful lot!" He said, she said, he said, he said, she said... all in fairly rapid succession... and thinking that it sounded horribly juvenile and unappealing.

Ex.: Then Ron pushed Harry into an armchair and said, "You're a Parselmouth. Why didn't you tell us?"
"I'm a what?" said Harry.
"A Parselmouth," said Ron. "You can talk to snakes."
"I know," said Harry. "I mean, it's only the second time I've ever done it. I accidentally set a boa constrictor on my cousin Dudley at the zoo once -- long story -- but it was telling me it had never seen Brazil and I sort of set it free without meaning to -- that was before I knew I was a wizard ( ... )

harmony_bites June 27 2006, 21:21:24 UTC

Perhaps this is simply an overuse of dialogue tags as a whole, not merely overuse of "said."

I think so--from what I've read the best dialogue attribution of all--is none. Especially in cases like the above, with only two people present in the scene, once both are identified, they can go back and forth without a tag.

You can also use beats--you describe an action or thought or gesture by a character, and attach the dialogue to it. That too can be overdone, but both of the above can help avoiding overuse of "said" And said (and asked) really disappears--the other attributes don't. I always feel a bit patronized by them--as if I can't tell for myself that someone just added that, or continued, or clarified or whatever.

Since I don't read Stephen King, I have no idea how he writes, but I've just looked at one of my favorite popular authors, Clive Cussler, and he seems to use "said" about 40% of the time, and half of those have an adverb attached.I haven't found Clive Cussler readable. He's a favorite author btw of Dean Weasley Smith, ( ... )