Let's talk war.

[hackthis]

For those of you not living in the USA or just too far gone in your World Cup haze a few days ago Rolling Stone magazine posted an article they will be publishing in their upcoming issue about Gen Stanley McChrystal. McChrystal, for those who don't know, is the man in charge of US military operations in Afghanistan.

The article, The Runaway

Comments

[romanticalgirl]

The office I work with contains several liberals, a few conservatives and a social anarchist, so this was quite the discussion yesterday. I think I hit a lot of these points and got across to them the "damned if you do, damned if you don't" doesn't just apply to schedulers of womens' OB/gyn appointments, but to the POTUS. The thing that floors me is that McChrystal had PRIOR DOCUMENTATION of what a embedded reporter could do power-wise with Generation Kill, and he's at a higher level of command.

As my military father put it - "You chose this job and you do your fucking job. You don't bitch about it to anyone but the people who can change it and even then you don't bitch - you sell something better."

McChrystal is the scapegoat, the easy item to talk about rather than the stuff that truly needs to be addressed. People are dying for this. The military is sold on the "do it for your country" which means their tenet is that they're dying for us. If the top command can't fucking sell that, then something else of greater import is really

[hackthis]

I won't assume that McChrystal has read Generation Kill. It'd be nice if someone on Team America had read it, but I won't give anybody that much credit. What I will say is common sense would tell you that a journalist is not bound by the same code of conduct as a member of the US military, spoken or unspoken. To brazenly shoot your mouth off to someone who has no interest in covering your ass, whether it's at a meeting, in a Victor or lying on the bathroom floor of an Irish pub puking your guts out, that's stupid. So you get zero points for stupid. HOWEVER. You get minus points for as your daddy said, not doing your fucking job. I don't think McChrystal is a scapegoat I think he is a symptom of much MUCH bigger problems in the military, with these operations, with the administration and with the way the government operates as a whole, but you don't want me expounding for the next thirty minutes, trust. I think that McChrystal is a fucking distraction from the real issues though, chiefly for me, the fact that even the people on the

[romanticalgirl]

Distraction is a much better word than scapegoat and more along the lines of what I meant. As for GK - even if they hadn't read it, they had to have *heard* of it, though inter-service politics might make it so that they don't talk about those other things like the Navy and Marines and such.

Either way, if you don't know that Rolling Stone is a liberal leaning magazine and thus probably not in support of what your war is and is about, how did you manage to grow up in the United States? Also as a magazine article, they don't have the "news" requirement of being impartial (not that they are, but they're *supposed* to be), so they went into this with their eyes open.

[hackthis]

Someone will come back and blame this entire thing on the military's open door policy to the media. It hasn't happened yet, but give it a few days and that's going to affect reporting from here on out. And that will be a real shame, because for every Hastings there is a Sebastian Junger and an Evan Wright just trying to present the situation in an informed light. But this is going to shut so many doors that could've been opened that it's actually a fucking travesty.

[kindofdanceit]

I haven't read the article yet and haven't yet read the bit you said you commented on a post before but my general idea about this whole thing is that they got a bit too relaxed around Hastings and let out stuff that shouldn't have left a tight circle. Or maybe they didn't give a damn? This could all come from me being always concerned about how what I say might come across to others and.

I also agree with Tom's "anything you hear inside my tent is off the record until you check it with us."

This was not how to end a career like McChrystal's.

[hackthis]

I would definitely read the article. It, uh, yeah. I do think it's very unfortunate that his career ended this way, but there's a certain cavalierness to their behavior (his and that of Team America) that kind of made this inevitable. Some people think about what they say, some people get so far into the stratosphere that they think they're untouchable. No one is untouchable. If it wasn't Rolling Stone, it would've been somebody else, and if it wasn't McChrystal it would've been somebody else.

[breakthecitysky]

Howie Kurtz who does the media reporting at The Washington Post has a brief analysis that includes a short conversation with the reporter (who is a former Post staffer) that's worth a look [here].

What frustrates me is that the uproar over the comments (which were stupid, and his staff knew better, he knew better, and he ended up painting Obama into a corner) really has overshadowed the real meat of the story. As you pointed out, the general's own troops aren't sold on this strategy, and if you don't have the men whose lives are on the line behind you then you should be gone anyway.

[hackthis]

What frustrates me is that the uproar over the comments (which were stupid, and his staff knew better, he knew better, and he ended up painting Obama into a corner) really has overshadowed the real meat of the story. As you pointed out, the general's own troops aren't sold on this strategy, and if you don't have the men whose lives are on the line behind you then you should be gone anyway.

I said something to similar in comments above this one to romanticalgirl and kindoffdanceit. The fact of the matter is that when you are at this level you don't say shit like this, you just don't. You can think it all you want, you can yell in the shower and bitch to your reflection when you are shaving in the morning but you do not verbalize your doubts to a reporter from Rolling Stone and you do NOT let your men doubt you and the fucking strategic plan. McChrystal is not an enlisted man, he is not entitled to this sort of freedom. He gave that up for the stars on his uniform. So, to me, he threw this away with his cavalier attitude. That is upsetting and unfortunate. But

[knowledgequeen]

Let me make certain I understand your opinion here, because I confess I'm not getting it - I understand that Gen. McChrystal's great sin, as you said, was insubordination, and when you're in his position, you toe the damn line. But what I'm not quite comprehending is your own position. You said Hastings' quotes were all derisory and imply he's an asshole. Okay, cool. Yet McChrystal coming out against the country's strategy is insubordinate. Does that mean you think the article was unfair, that McChrystal's feelings are irrelevant, that he never should have said anything, or all three? If McChrystal's men aren't buying what he's selling, that's a Big Fucking Deal. Does that mean you think his resignation/whatever were justified

tl; had to break up.

[hackthis]

You are not picking a fight or suffering from a case of the dipshits, at least as far as I am concerned. :) My opinion here would require about two days and a case of Kronenberg to fully dissect but I will try to address your questions as coherently as possible. I've addressed some of these in prior comments so there will be some cutting and pasting.

1. McChrystal's insubordination. General McChrystal is not an enlisted man, he is a four star general and when you are that high on the totem pole you have certain obligations. You have obligations to your men, to your president and to your stated objective. As I told breakthecitysky: The fact of the matter is that when you are at this level you don't say shit like this, you just don't. You can think it all you want, you can yell in the shower and bitch to your reflection when you are shaving in the morning but you do not verbalize your doubts to a reporter from Rolling Stone and you do NOT let your men doubt you and the fucking strategic plan. McChrystal is not an enlisted man, he is not entitled to

tl; had to break up (part 2)

[hackthis]

4. There is nothing wrong with being a wine-sipping communist dick suck. The quote resonated with me during the series and in the book, because the author of the book is pretty much a wine-sipping communist dick suck, and so were a few actors on the series and so am I. Except I'm more of a socialist but I like wine and I suck cock. I use the quote as an extreme point of view to show that there is a disparity between the writer and the subject and that there are many disparities between the General and the President or you and I or me and the men and women who are serving, but that sometimes these things need to be put aside to achieve something greater. That wasn't possible in that case. Or it would've been but now I feel the whole thing has been undermined.

As I told romanticalgirl: I don't think McChrystal is a scapegoat I think he is a symptom of much MUCH bigger problems in the military, with these operations, with the administration and with the way the government operates as a whole, but you don't want me expounding for the next thirty

Re: tl; had to break up (part 2)

[knowledgequeen]

Thanks very much for the time you took to clarify; as I said, I'm not nearly as well versed in this as I probably should be, and I definitely appreciate it

[calico_jane]

I'm not going to comment on the whys and wherefores of counterinsurgency tactics, the lack of faith of the troops in their commander or the lack of faith of that commander in his commander in chief

[hackthis]

If one is so shockingly arrogant as to declare a propietary interest in an armed conflict, at least have the common sense and decency to acknowledge that the interest lies with the ordinary people whose country it is.

There was an astonishing lack of consideration or discussion of the people of Afghanistan in this article. I was pretty shocked to be honest. I mean the troops at least got a passing mention for their lack of faith in Command, but at no time were the people of Afghanistan mentioned. You'd think we weren't fighting this in their country. Or as we keep saying, "For them." Just another mark in the clusterfuck of that article.