Comments | gustavolacerda: palatalization of "s"

gustavolacerda

palatalization of "s"

Feb 23, 2011 10:53

Are you ever tempted to pronounce "street" as "shtreet"? When I pronounce "Mercer Street", it almost sounds like "mersher shtreet" or "mersher shchreet" (regarding the palatalization in "Mercer", I'm not sure if the "r" or the "s" in "street" is responsible, or both ( Read more... )

linguistics

Comments 6

gustavolacerda February 23 2011, 17:25:39 UTC

This is an interesting comment that disagrees with me, namely the 60% figure about Recife. I'd love to see their sources. Or, I suspect this is due to Recife receiving lots of immigration from the interior... I think the older local people have ~100% palatalization.

Maravilha Sat Sep 12, 2009 8:19 pm GMT
Pronunciation of /s/ in Brazil is heavily dialectal.Not really ( ... )

palatalization serapio February 23 2011, 18:18:09 UTC

There are several distinct sources of palatalization. The palatalization of the /s/ in 'street' comes from the /r/. Before an /r/, /t/ is pronounced further back and more with the tip of the tongue, almost retroflex, and when that spreads to the /s/ you get the /ʃ/. I think the story on contexts like /meʒmo/ and /feʃta/ is that it came from a phantom /i/ between the consonants. This paper http://www.projetoaspa.org/cristofaro/publicacao/pdf/2004kaye.pdf has an interesting analysis of palatalization in different Brazilian dialects, though it's all about the phonological contexts, not about the social groups.

Oh, and I think the pronunciation of 'two' as /tʃu/ more likely comes from exposure to British /tju/. Estuary English actually has /tʃu/ in those cases too, I think.

Re: palatalization gustavolacerda February 23 2011, 18:35:58 UTC

Thanks for the professional feedback! :-)

<< The palatalization of the /s/ in 'street' comes from the /r/. >>

Do you mean the /r/ in "street" or the final /r/ in "Mercer"?

The paper you linked seems to be about the /tia/->/tʃia/ phenomenon, not about the palatalization of "s" (such as /meʒmo/ and /feʃta/). Are these phenomena related?

I have a hard time imagining the phantom /i/ phenomenon.... do you mean: /mezmo/ -> /mezimo/ -> /meʒmo/? I guess it's not too implausible.

<< British /tju/. >>

Which word is pronounced this way by Native English speakers? IMHO, this is not the way any British people say "two".

Re: palatalization serapio February 24 2011, 06:00:21 UTC

<< Do you mean the /r/ in "street" or the final /r/ in "Mercer"? >>

I meant "street". I don't think I've heard "Mercer" pronounced with /ʃ/, but I imagine it's more likely caused the by the previous /r/ than the final /r/.

<< The paper you linked seems to be about the /tia/->/tʃia/ phenomenon, not about the palatalization of "s" (such as /meʒmo/ and /feʃta/). Are these phenomena related? >>

Oh right. That wasn't the one I was thinking of. It does mention /aʃtʃi/ but ignores Rio-style palatalization. I think they are related, but I don't know now where I would have seen it explained.

<< British /tju/. >>

Hmm. Again, I don't know what I was thinking...

easwaran February 23 2011, 18:45:57 UTC

Certainly in "sugar" and "measure" it has something to do with the "u" after the "s". I believe these words had the vowel /y/ when they were in French, which generally got borrowed into English as /ju/. American English has generally lost the /j/ in words like "new" and "due", where British English still has it, but the way it affected the /s/ seems to still be around.

gustavolacerda February 23 2011, 18:50:06 UTC

haha. I find it comical when English speakers say French /y/ as /ju/. Brazilians are more likely to render /y/ as /i/, which is way less cute.

What I find interesting is that both options are available in both languages... and I wonder how much of this is due to the social structure of L2 learning. That is, if you took isolated learners from the USA and Brazil, would the Americans still consistently say /ju/ while Brazilians consistently say /i/?