I haven't talked about being Asian in a while, so here you go.
Allison Scagliotti of Warehouse 13 said a thing in this interview with The Backlot (formerly known as AfterElton):
TBL: The fifth leg of the table was when Aaron Ashmore came on as Steve. Most people thought you were getting the love interest. But you knew up front that he was gay, right?
AS: Yes. The character was originally written to be Asian, much like Claudia, Claudia was written to be Asian, but something just didn't gel, and here I am. But the same thing with Steve. I read with a bunch of fantastic actors, but SyFy wouldn't approve any of them. And then we had Aaron. He was immediately so easy to work with. Pretty much on day one I was like "Here's how this is going to be. I'm going to treat you like my gay best friend from now on." And he was like "Okayyy." And from that point on, I was speaking in slang and snapping in a star, just so great.
I keep thinking about how one, as an Asian American, should write a post about this. At one point I felt such a sense of frustration trying to wrangle the many threads of thoughts in my mind that I thought: Can't I just point this quote out to a reading and watching public and have it be understood as problematic? That is, when someone mentions that two roles written to be Asian ended up cast with Caucasian actors, does anyone feel bothered by that?
Or is that just me?
Relatively speaking, I don't consume much media. At the moment I have wrapped up watching Season 3 of "Lost Girl," watch "Elementary" episodes streaming online, and have been sitting down leisurely with "Warehouse 13" on Netflix. (I'm in Season 2, like less than ten episode in.) That's it.
On those three shows, the number of series regulars who are Asian is a whopping . . . 1: Joan Watson (Elementary). (Lucy Liu does a lot of heavy lifting in this role, what with being a gender-swapped Watson and an Asian, just good lord, enough already! If they'd turned her into a lesbian as well, she'd be a triple threat. Hear that, CBS??????)
On those three shows, the number of series regulars (or somewhat reoccurring over seasons) who are black is . . . 4: Hale (Lost Girl), Leena (Warehouse 13), Mrs. Frederick (Warehouse 13), Det. Bell (Elementary). At least one for each show, but don't say token, I never said token, yeah?
On those three shows, the number of series regulars who are Caucasian/white is . . . 12?: Bo, Kenzi, Dyson, Lauren, Tamsin, Trick, the Morrigan (Lost Girl), Myka, Pete, Claudia (Warehouse 13), Sherlock Holmes, Det. ??? (Elementary). The number might be small, I'm sorry, my memory is bad so sometimes I can't remember everyone, ok?
I may not consume a lot of media, but I think about it a lot. Because narratives are important. They show us how society sees us. They show us the possibilities of people we can be. They shape how we see and understand ourselves. They signify to us that people who look like us, like the things we do, talk the way we do, dress the way we do, do the things we do, live the places we do, are recognized as legitimate people in society. Fictional representation is an acknowledgement, a mirror, and a portrait.
Two roles written as Asian, cast as Caucasian.
Number of Asian regulars proposed to be on Warehouse 13: 2.
Number of Asian regulars on Warehouse 13: 0.
Let me take a moment to clarify a few things. Claudia's character is one of my favorites of the Warehouse 13 cast; she's like an eager puppy who wants approval, acknowledgement, attention, and acceptance, bouncing from one "family" member to the next. I want to hug her and cuddle her and pet her hair and play with the random colored streak in it. I like Allison Scagliotti in the role. She's a cutie.
Would an Asian actress as Claudia bring the same "feel" as Scagliotti in the role? I doubt it. But would an Asian actress in the role not have been able to capture the "family" dynamic of the Warehouse 13 cast? Could an Asian actress not have been a "daughter" to Artie, a "little sister" to Myka, and the "annoying but lovable thorn in the side sister" to Pete?
Because that's the implication. Or one of them.
I'm not saying Scagliotti meant to imply that in her answer to the TBL interview question. But I'm going to contend that her answer is a very loaded one (almost because of its casualness), with implications I'm going to string out whether or not they're founded. Because I don't want to feel like the only one who was bothered by what she said.
Scagliotti said she read with a lot of ("fantastic"!) actors, one of the implications of that being that some of those actors were, well, Asian! (This may also be assuming that the casting call specified Asian in any form, but I'm not going to hold my breath in trying to convince myself of that. If it did, I have a hard time believing that every Asian, English-speaking actor seeking work didn't show up for the audition, because that is an aggrieved sector of artists.) It is, depressingly, no surprise to me that SyFy would not approve. But what gets me is that second part.
I keep getting hung up on one phrase: "but something just didn't gel."
What does that even mean?
Because even Scagliotti said that she read with a "bunch of fantastic" actors gunning for the role of Steve. If some of those were of the Asian persuasion, what does it mean that they didn't "gel" with the dynamics of the show, which is pretty explicitly a (surrogate) family dynamic.
"Asian" doesn't fit into a "white" family? Does someone need to tell this to all the white parents adopting Asian children?
I don't know what that phrase means.
I don't know and it bothers me.
Because what does it matter what the color of her or his skin would have been for an ethnic minority that has, more or less, learned to be invisible in that respect? The silent, stoic, hardworking "model minority" who modeled so well that when you talk about issues of "race" in the United States of America, you are rarely consciously including "Asians" in that term.
It bothers me to know that there could have been more Asian representation (in a fun, casual, family environment!), but perhaps, the implication is, something about that "Asian" moniker made that particular aspect untenable in that setting. I mean, does it bother me a bit that the role of Claudia, the geeky, awkward techie nerd was originally slated as Asian, thus a bit stereotypical in itself? A bit, but not as much as I am bothered that that didn't happen at all. And to know it could have.
Am I bothered when "Lost Girl" touts out a train of painful stereotypes across multiple ethnicities--Russians, Latinos, Asians, I'm sure there are more--and no one else seems bothered by this? Yes. Am I bothered that this is acceptable and even expected and somehow serves as self-explanatory narrative shortcuts? Yes.
I'm so bothered, I can't even pinpoint how to talk about this pervasive issue of identity and representation or even grasp at the number of straws I've been trying to sort out in my head. I have, after all, thought a lot about being Asian American and Asian identity, both my own conflicted feelings about it (because of conflicted messages directed at me!) and how society treats it, how that has shaped my identity, how my identity has been shaped, how assimilation has dictated what is "normal" or "abnormal" for me, how media warps or reflects it. Heck, I did a whole podcast with just_keep_on about being Asian American.
There is a problem here, I'm just not sure where to point fingers. And I'm not the only one:
me: so I've been stewing on a post I want to write but I'm not quite sure how to put it into words about what bothers me
but in an interview
Allison Scagliotti, who plays Claudia on WH13 [Warehouse 13], mentioned that the role had originally been written for an Asian person
likewise a new role introduced in Season 3
was written as an "Asian" character
but in casting
it went to a Caucasian actor
and she said something interesting in two parts
the implication that trying to cast Asian meant that "something wasn't gelling"
and that Syfy apparently didn't approve of a whole bunch of actors, whom I presume may have been Asian
and it just . . . bothered me
FAA: sigh
me: yeah, seriously
but it particularly bothered me
because the way they talk about WH13
is as a "family" dynamic
that it was deliberately built and written that way
and the character of Claudia
was deliberately meant to be Artie's daughter figure
and kind of the little sister figure to everyone else
so part of the implication of not "gelling" is that some Asian-cast person didn't fit into that dynamic
whatever that means in terms of mannerisms/interpretations that auditioning actors brought to the scene
FAA: Honestly if they already cast it as sort of a daughter figure that makes a lot of sense that they cast the white girl. Also the fact that the hacker was supposed to be Asian is not even surprising.
me: right
on both counts
but
FAA: The problem is not really just the producers though but the audiences.
me: both
it's a cyclical problem
if you don't put it on the TV
then you can't get anyone to judge it
but if you just assume what the audience wants
FAA: Yes, I'm not saying it's not the producers, but overall the reaction is quite negative because white people don't feel any connection with people of color.
me: then you're never going to put it out there
FAA: (then of course bitch about affirmative action and pretend racism isn't real)
Yes but the problem is also when they put it out there, it gets shot down.
I mean, people always make jokes but tv shows featuring black actors largely have black audiences.
I mean there are exceptions of course.
I'm not saying it's because this is natural but like let's say...
Margaret Cho did the series, All American Girl? It lasted two seasons and was canceled because a show featuring an Asian American just didn't connect with the majority of the audiences. The internalized racism that the country perpetuates gets reinforced by the media.
And what they do show is always stereotyped which tends to just reinforce the racism.
me: right
but then you do have the random . . . phenomenon?
something that slips under the radar
like I'd say Cristina on Grey's [Anatomy]
WHO IS SUCH AN INTERESTING CASE
FAA: It's this nasty cycle that doesn't get addressed because people seem to think that civil rights passing means racism is erased.
me: since her actor is very firmly an Asian American
FAA: Yes but she also somewhat enforces the stereotype of a cold, driven and hard working Asian Americans that are 'know it alls' =|
I'm not sure how her character has evolved.
I haven't actually watched since season 5.
I'm not saying Cristina isn't great but of course there are exceptions but it doesn't help at all.
The other thing that makes Cristina more easy for people to accept is generally that aside from her skin color and that stereotype, she is like totally westernized
Because what white people hate most is seeing cultural differences.
me: omg
you watched five seasons?
I don't think I watched one full one
FAA: Oh, well lesbians.
But really, Cristina did not retain any cultural heritage which is not a BAD thing but it's another reason why.
me: *nods*
I don't disagree with you
FAA: I'm not saying people of color must retain their heritage, but to be relatable and likeable to a western audience it definitely helps.
It's like...
When reddit basically becomes Stormfront they complain about ghetto culture.
'ghetto'
And basically the culture which is different than theirs which may or may not include loud behavior and other factors. Dressing differently is seen as 'thuggish' and whatnot. People don't relate to crimes.
Look at the Trayvon Martin case? Most people wanted to point him out as some sort of gangster thug and pointed out problems in his past and complained about people posting pictures where he looked 'innocent' as though it was some sort of crime.
[...]
FAA: There was this great blog post my friend sent me the other day complaining about the Boston Marathon and how the nation grieves for the death of white children and doesn't care at all when black children are killed in crimes or point out reasons about why they deserve it.
As I was trying to parse my thoughts through the assertion that maybe skin color has everything to do with the amount of sympathy and empathy an audience feels with a character, another Asian American and the person who kept pushing WH13, arbitrary_greay, appeared to hit me up with word vomit:
Arbitrary Greay: so
what I came up with
it's expectations
and how they become so ingrained that they become instincts
so even when trying to move past prejudices they have influence
in this case, it's Asian stereotypes, particularly as they pertain to accents
me: are you kidding me
are you telling me
that a host of Asian Americans and Canadians
didn't show up
who spoke perfect English?
no
I will say
Arbitrary Greay: no,
the problem is
me: that I doubt the casting call specified Asian at all
I had a convo today with someone else
who put it very well
just
that
well
Arbitrary Greay: even I sometimes do a mental double take at Asians not having an accent at all
wh13 wanted to have its cake and eat it too
me: audiences don't sympathize with non-Caucasians that well
Arbitrary Greay: they wanted an Asian with the geeky fandom tendencies
which plays to stereotype
that should work
me: right
that itself is problematic in a different way
as my friend and I also discussed
but
two characters
Arbitrary Greay: but they also want snarky banter and a familial chemistry with the rest of the pasty white cast
me: both recast as Caucasian
because something wasn't "gelling"
in the "family"
Arbitrary Greay: you do get Asians who can do that
do the snarky banter
without an accent at all
me: what is this accent talk?
Arbitrary Greay: but then the subconscious kicks in
me: that is patently ridiculous
Arbitrary Greay: and an Asian without an accent doing banter actually "feels" wrong
me: the only reason
that exists
is because
Arbitrary Greay: it's a vicious cycle
me: people don't cast Asians in a role that isn't FOBby stereotyped
but
Cristina Yang [Grey's Anatomy] ain't got no accent
Arbitrary Greay: we aren't used to seeing non-fobby Asian speak because they aren't common in media
me: that's where my anger is
Arbitrary Greay: but because we aren't used to it, it feels wrong when we see it
me: because you can bet ["normal"] English-speaking actors showed up
Arbitrary Greay: so we can never get used to it
me: and they were BLOCKED BY PRODUCERS
but not just for that
I think my friend was right
in that people don't sympathize with non-Caucasians as well
Arbitrary Greay: not non-caucasians
asians
because I can imagine claudia and steve as other ethnicities
me: they sympathize with white people
Arbitrary Greay: black, brown
mexican
me: other minorities
Arbitrary Greay: but east asian?
me: because all the major narrartives
are white
Arbitrary Greay: there's that stereotype of precision to east asians
me: this goes back to Stealing Buddha's Dinner [Note: This memoir. If you ever want to try to understand how I feel as a VIetnamese American, read this book.]
and the White Narrative
and how in assimilation
Arbitrary Greay: but I can imagine black claudia
or mexican steve
me: you assume the White Narrative
I cannot imagine Black Claudia XD
Arbitrary Greay: I can
we live in a will smith era
me: I just got sassy black woman--which is another fault of media representations
Arbitrary Greay: will smith and kerri washington
etc
me: but a vulnerable black girl? how often do you get that? because black women are raised to be strong women
Arbitrary Greay: claudia's not vulnerable 24/7
me: but you need her to be vulnerable
dude
did you not see Hunger Games wank?
about Rue and her being black?
and how people were like, "Oh my God, it wasn't as sad when she died because she was black and I imagined her white!!!!"
Arbitrary Greay: dead black walking?
oh
that's different
okay
me: no, that's sympathy
Arbitrary Greay: I thought it was going to be wank about dead black walking
me: when you don't empathize
because apparently audiences only connect with ~whitey~
Arbitrary Greay: yes, that's true
but I'm just saying that asians have it even harder than other races
me: because they're invisible
they assimilated too well
when you talk about race
Arbitrary Greay: well, other races can usually step in for white
me: you don't talk about Asians
Arbitrary Greay: an asian has to be cast as an asian
an asian cannot step in for a formerly white role
me: this is reverse casting
the role WAS asian
Arbitrary Greay: as opposed to will smith stepping into a formerly white role
me: not just one
two
(and one was a gay asian, at that!)
Arbitrary Greay: I watched this documentary about casting the 2006 revival of A Chorus Line
one of the roles is explicitly asian female
the two finalists
one was an immigrant from Japan (8 years in America)
other was native born
immigrant still had a slight accent
native born of course had flawless american english
and the slight fob to the immigrant's speech gave her more spitfire, which fit the role better
6:18 PM
the native born was too smooth
immigrant got the role
[Note: The documentary was Every Little Step. Watch it on YouTube. Relevant time stamps are 15:33 and 1:04:10.]
me: and Ms. Saigon is usually Filipina
and?
Arbitrary Greay: so
I imagine something similar might have happened with WH13
they wanted an asian who could banter
they got many who auditioned who could do that
me: "Your white accent as a white person is so much better!"?
Arbitrary Greay: but in their own minds, they were looking for tiny bit of fobby
but then if you get fobby
that throws off the chemistry
can't imagine that family white unit family anymore
me: oh
wow
wow
I just
sorry
I mean
we are
in a society
where white parents adopt asian children
Arbitrary Greay: I grew up in as white a community as it gets, especially since we chose not to go to chinese church
and like I said, sometimes I do a mental double take at a non-accent Asian talk
I have my own moments of hypocrisy
me: I grew up in PA and CA was a culture shock
but THAT'S THE POINT
you and I are the generation
Arbitrary Greay: (although, lol, CA asian accent qualifies for me, so I don't do that with my co-workers)
me: that grows up
speaking perfect English
becoming professionals
in the USA
it is our peers who are auditioning for these roles
and getting snubbed
for being, what you would suggest, is too white
in a society
that has been telling us
to become white
Arbitrary Greay: yep
like
me: when I watch WH13
Arbitrary Greay: I recently watched 21
me: I don't think anything like, "Wow, so progressive!"
Arbitrary Greay: the MIT Blackjack team movie
me: but if they had cast Asian characters in those two roles
I think I would have been super pleasantly surprised
Arbitrary Greay: WH13 is as safe as it gets
in 21, it's fucking MIT
so of course the real life events it's based on
majority were asians
in the movie, protag and romantic interest are white
me: I'm just saying this is the problem
Arbitrary Greay: two asians shown being on the team
me: and AS's interview just points to it
with a big honking blinking sign
mostly because how casually she said it
Arbitrary Greay: neither are portrayed as super nerdy or any accents
and they just fade into the background
the male one is given a cursory kleptomania quirk
the female one has no defining traits
at all
neither are given development, of course
so on the one hand, their asian-ness does not define them
on the other hand, fucking NOTHING defines them
me: they're Asians at MIT, that's self explanatory--we're supposed to be thankful they were included
Arbitrary Greay: but
when women get roles where gender does not define them
they still get applauded as gender-progressive
me: the thing is
Arbitrary Greay: even if writing characters as gender-blind or race-blind is only halfway there
me: if you had put an Asian into Claudia's role
her Asianness wouldn't have defined her
Claudia is about being lost, vulnerable, seeking approval, attention
she was pretty explicitly meant to be Artie's daughter figure
and that phrase "something didn't gel" really bothers me
Arbitrary Greay: again, I grew up in a white environment
and I tend towards non-white friends
even in high school
me: see
I grew up in a white environment
Arbitrary Greay: when it was a special academy
me: and almost all my friends were white
Arbitrary Greay: and it was probably over 60% asian
my circle was primarily white
me: yes
my brother and I once put it this way to each other
"When I am with white people, I feel Asian. When I am with Asians, I feel white."
Arbitrary Greay: I don't gel with asians unless there are non-asians also present as a dominating presence XD
and homg dealing with non-geeky asians has been really really weird
me: but I gel so easily with white people
with no asians present
which would have been Claudia
Arbitrary Greay: fratboy californian asians
"why do you have an interest in football!?" XD
me: but that's also the point
Asians are just like any other people
they have a wide range of interests
because they're PEOPLE
and INDIVIDUALS
Arbitrary Greay: when they're allowed to be
isolated asians, I think
tend towards geeky because of both
society expectations
and that fandom offers them an outlet of social interaction they can get
me: I think part of it is isolation
Arbitrary Greay: because of a racial divide
me: yes
Arbitrary Greay: california
you have a smorgasbord of asians
growing up together
me: see
Arbitrary Greay: everything is normalized
me: I don't know if that's true
in that
I grew up
where it was predominantly white
Arbitrary Greay: then you get complete non-stereotypes
me: but there were a lot of Asian kids that gravitated into one community
like that Chinese Church
and part of it became about REJECTING that
to assimilate
Arbitrary Greay: reminds me of that Jersey Shore korean version show
K-town or smth
me: which Bich Minh Nguyen put so beautifully and poignantly in her memoir
Arbitrary Greay: where the cast was all "FUCK ALL ASIAN-NESS"
me: ahahaha
yes
because
you know
what you see
is a stereotype
on tv
and in media
and you don't want to be that
you don't want to be the fob with the accent
Arbitrary Greay: people were like "ooh, this could be a platform for kpop!"
but the cast were all fuck that shit
repping asian pop culture would just be adhering to the stereotype
me: I think about Saving Face a lot
about how Vivian's story didn't get explored but I think about it So Much
that she was clearly the kid who is like the exception that proves the rule in some respects
and yet the stereotypical Asian in others
and it's so glossed over
Vivian is totally out to her parents
and her Mandarin sucks (totally assimilated next generation)
her parents speak to her in heavily accented English (something I know very well!)
and yet she is pushed to be the prodigy by her overbearing, achievement-seeking father
and it's So Glossed Over it's kind of beautiful and yet also frustrating
Arbitrary Greay: it's a dilemma
me: (of course, Saving Face was a film made by an Asian lesbian, so, like, she Gets It)
and the problem is
of course
Arbitrary Greay: 1st gen want to promote asian-made pop culture
into american culture
me: are there Asians in the writer rooms?
Arbitrary Greay: 2nd gen want to get away from that
and listen to american artists
there's not much of a push for american-born asian pop culture
me: I don't care what the Asians want
I'm talking about Asians in narratives
because they're not there
so you default to . . . white
Arbitrary Greay: there's hawaii five o XD
me: where ALL THE ASIANS are cast
seriously
as in
the five
who can get work
Arbitrary Greay: and they are all fandom alumni
me: I remember the incident
not too long ago
with the play
that had not cast asians
in Asian roles
and the real anger that that spurred
[Note: The play I'm referring to was "The Nightingale," which did a workshop performance at the La Jolla Playhouse, CA. The production crew came under some fire when they cast no Asian American actors for a play that took place in a "mythical China." The forum that was held took place in the summer of 2012, I believe.]
Arbitrary Greay: you know
me: in both actors and the Asian public
Arbitrary Greay: you get some white writers every now and then who try to push asian vehicles
and sometimes they're even hits
but they never go anywhere beyond those individuals
like Rodgers
Richard Rodgers
he married an asian
wrote South Pacific
Flower Drum Song
The King and I
three fairly classic musicals
didn't go anywhere
me: it's not about "going anywhere"
Arbitrary Greay: Miss Saigon is like the only legacy
me: it's about inclusion
forget the fact that the role was even written for an Asian
and was cast as white
I just imagine all these Asians trying for roles who can't get roles
Arbitrary Greay: it's no-win
if they gel, they aren't asian enough
or they just can't gel
me: see
that is such a bullshit phrase
Arbitrary Greay: like how there wasn't an asian in the main cast of firefly
me: what does that mean
what does NOT GEL mean
Arbitrary Greay: another case where the main cast was renowned for how it gelled
the chemistry
like in that 21 movie
well okay that was a bad example
me: so
Arbitrary Greay: because NO ONE had chemistry with anyone else in that movie XD
me: one of my family's long-time American friends
is this big ol' Jewish guy
who was always UP IN MY BUSINESS
and still is when he wants to be
and it's this weird uncle-like dynamic
is that not gelling?
Arbitrary Greay: probably doesn't come out well on screen
like with black-white
you had the images of white kids and the old kindly black slave babysitter
me: this is what I mean by bullshit though
like
Arbitrary Greay: but asian-white interaction?
me: Christina and Meredith are practically OTP
Arbitrary Greay: you got south pacific
and that's basically it
me: they are brotp
Arbitrary Greay: somehow the main brotp on hawaii five o is white-white
wtf
me: that sounds like proving the point about audience sympathies lying with ~whitey~
that is
like
at least one person needs to be white
in the dynamic
Arbitrary Greay: and I'm pretty sure they had to make the two koreans cousins or they would have inevitably become an asian-asian couple and sectioned off
me: no
because clearly the Asians will fall in love with white people
that's just standard narrative
or at least the woman
Arbitrary Greay: there's two ways with this
there's fall in love with white person because of white fever
but there's also "same-race couple, subsequently become boring and invisible"
see glee
me: but she fell in love with white people later
what's her face [Jenna?] recently fell in love with BLAINE
THE GAY WHITE MAN
I can't even remember her name
not that that matters
Arbitrary Greay: she fell in love with white person first and homg, had screentime
she hooks up with "other asian"? relegated to background
so what I'm saying
is if in hawaii five o
me: precisely
Arbitrary Greay: if the two koreans weren't cousins
me: so if you want sympathy from an audience
a white person needs to be involved
Arbitrary Greay: they would have hooked up with each other
and promptly become background
because remember, back in the day
minorities in media HAD to hook up with the same race
me: or they died?
Arbitrary Greay: coupling segregation
me: yeah, Ms. Saigon XD
that is basically the story
he couldn't take them both to America, his Vietnamese mistress!!!!
Arbitrary Greay: especially if they were the second lead in a romantic love triangle
me: (who is played by a Filipina!)
Arbitrary Greay: the white otp hooks up
oh wait, random minority of opposite sex shows up so second lead can have a happy ending!
jacob will find someone in his own native tribe!
instead of interfering with the pasty white perfection of bellaedward!
me: but
he ended up imprinting on their daughter
so
Arbitrary Greay: yeah I know
me: um
whitey
WHITEY PERFECTION
Arbitrary Greay: but I mean that that's the situation that used to be the norm
coupling segregation
so a minority hooking up with a white without any fuss over being inter-race is still kinda progressive
me: it's actually so much rarer now to see people of color courting people of color
because whitey is like so much superior?
I mean
Arbitrary Greay: because producers are bending over backwards to avoid being seen as couple segregationists
me: my own tastes are whacked in this way
because, unf, white women
Arbitrary Greay: and hispanic
you seem to enjoy the hot latinas
me: I couldn't date one
they'd walk over me like a doormat
they are feisty women
Arbitrary Greay: you wouldn't enjoy that? :3
me: in bed? yes
in every other aspect? no
Arbitrary Greay: heh
hmmm
me: like I think about the L Word
and since its core cast was white women
any minority
Arbitrary Greay: I seem to be more varied in ethnicity tastes for males
me: just hooked up with white women
except Bette, who was mixed XD
Arbitrary Greay: but tend more towards whites in females
me: and she was fucking power dyke [by which I meant, of course she was a power dyke, being a mixed colored woman!]
Arbitrary Greay: I can imagine dating any ethinicity guy
but can't imagine dating minority girl
me: I have a hard time
that is
I can see myself dating almost every ethnicity but black
which is terribly racist of me
[...]
Arbitrary Greay: huh
that's another sad thing
[...]
it seems like characters are only allowed to be one type of minority
either sexuality or race
can't be both
that would be overkill
too alienating
(thank you naya rivera)
[Note: I didn't catch this while chatting with AG, but you can include Kalinda in "The Good Wife" and Emily Fields in "Pretty Little Liars" as lesbian women of color in pop culture. MTV's series "Underemployed" had an adopted Asian American lead character. Whoo! I may not watch Pretty Little Liars, but damn if I don't love those recaps!]
and then the examples from overseas pop culture don't count because in the home culture, it's a story about a majority character
are there any black lesbian rappers out there?
me: probably
XD
[Then AG had to go to bed because of ~music streams~.]
AG and I tend to sound like we're arguing, but we aren't, really. We both come from the same starting point: There is a problem regarding Asian (American and/or media) representation. What we go back and forth about is: What is the shape of that problem? What is the root of it? Why is there a problem?
I'm going to shill you Stealing Buddha's Dinner by Bich Minh Nguyen so hard, you don't even understand. The beauty of Nguyen's memoir lies in her knowledge of how assimilation can happen through consumerism and consumption, of food, of narratives. She was a little Vietnamese girl growing up in America, reading every book she could get her hands on, and devouring all these tales . . . with white protagonists . . . and white narratives . . . and white framing . . . and she wasn't white. And one day she realized that. She. Wasn't. White. (Guys, I have read this book to anyone who can get past my lock.)
Not being white in a society that enshrines the white, often middle class narrative means that you are so often defining yourself against something. What aren't you? What are the things you do not have? What things do you do that "they" do not?
It is an "Other-ing" experience. Especially when there is no "like" object, no "similar face" to your own, to judge yourself against. Or the face that looks similar to yours acts in ways that bear no resemblance to you.
And yet, rereading those conversations, I am struck by what FAA said about Cristina Yang on "Grey's Anatomy" being "totally Westernized" and that that makes her more easily acceptable, even if she carries some stereotypical "Asian" traits. If the writing for Claudia and Steve would not have changed regardless of who had been cast, wouldn't Claudia and/or Steve have been just as "Westernized" and palatable? In the writing, the color of the actor's skin would not have been an issue unless the writing made it an issue.
So what was the issue in the execution?
I am troubled by AG's hypothesis. The implication being that in the writers' minds (who presumably are not Asian themselves), when they created an "Asian" character, they assumed certain traits about that character. AG hangs it on "accent," that accent being what is considered the "fresh off the boat" Asian inflection that "Lost Girl" used to such teeth-grinding degree in 3x08(?) and every other Asian actor bemoans having to assume for an Asian-specific role (because, unbelievably, it's not their natural speaking accent! Because they speak perfectly natural English! I apparently speak Pennsylvanian English! That is my "accent"!). But what they got in auditions went against expectations or, because they were expecting persons with certain traits (stereotypes?), the reality did not match the vision. The failure may have lain in pigeonholing.
What truly confuses me is that what I see here is an effort toward inclusion . . . that fell through. I had operated mostly on the assumption that writers didn't even remember to include Asian characters when formulating casts and pitching shows, but this demonstrated the exact opposite to me. That here were writers that envisioned Asian characters and that something about that actually didn't work out.
And it is more interesting to me that I wasn't angry about any casting in WH13--though even color blindness couldn't stop you from noticing how white that cast is--until I learned that there had been an opportunity for Asian casting and it disappeared. It is the same type of anger that infused that La Jolla Playhouse "Nightingale" affair. The sense of "You took that away from me." Asian Americans could have had something shiny but you made sure that we didn't.
Which points to something that troubles me even more: Why am I not just generally angry at the lack of Asians in a cast or on the screen instead of only being angry when there could have been a concrete possibility of more Asians on my screen? That is, Why doesn't everything ring false if I never see an Asian cross my screen when in my daily life I encounter Asians all the time? Why do I just accept that the whiteness on my screen is "right"?
Why is the White Narrative "my" narrative? Why am I always asked to sympathize with the white protagonists? Why do I? Why is there only one Asian American movie I love? (SAVING FACE.)
Seriously, don't tell me I'm the only one bothered by this.
TBL: The fifth leg of the table was when Aaron Ashmore came on as Steve. Most people thought you were getting the love interest. But you knew up front that he was gay, right?
AS: Yes. The character was originally written to be Asian, much like Claudia, Claudia was written to be Asian, but something just didn't gel, and here I am. But the same thing with Steve. I read with a bunch of fantastic actors, but SyFy wouldn't approve any of them. And then we had Aaron. He was immediately so easy to work with. Pretty much on day one I was like "Here's how this is going to be. I'm going to treat you like my gay best friend from now on." And he was like "Okayyy." And from that point on, I was speaking in slang and snapping in a star, just so great.
I keep thinking about how one, as an Asian American, should write a post about this. At one point I felt such a sense of frustration trying to wrangle the many threads of thoughts in my mind that I thought: Can't I just point this quote out to a reading and watching public and have it be understood as problematic? That is, when someone mentions that two roles written to be Asian ended up cast with Caucasian actors, does anyone feel bothered by that?
Or is that just me?
Relatively speaking, I don't consume much media. At the moment I have wrapped up watching Season 3 of "Lost Girl," watch "Elementary" episodes streaming online, and have been sitting down leisurely with "Warehouse 13" on Netflix. (I'm in Season 2, like less than ten episode in.) That's it.
On those three shows, the number of series regulars who are Asian is a whopping . . . 1: Joan Watson (Elementary). (Lucy Liu does a lot of heavy lifting in this role, what with being a gender-swapped Watson and an Asian, just good lord, enough already! If they'd turned her into a lesbian as well, she'd be a triple threat. Hear that, CBS??????)
On those three shows, the number of series regulars (or somewhat reoccurring over seasons) who are black is . . . 4: Hale (Lost Girl), Leena (Warehouse 13), Mrs. Frederick (Warehouse 13), Det. Bell (Elementary). At least one for each show, but don't say token, I never said token, yeah?
On those three shows, the number of series regulars who are Caucasian/white is . . . 12?: Bo, Kenzi, Dyson, Lauren, Tamsin, Trick, the Morrigan (Lost Girl), Myka, Pete, Claudia (Warehouse 13), Sherlock Holmes, Det. ??? (Elementary). The number might be small, I'm sorry, my memory is bad so sometimes I can't remember everyone, ok?
I may not consume a lot of media, but I think about it a lot. Because narratives are important. They show us how society sees us. They show us the possibilities of people we can be. They shape how we see and understand ourselves. They signify to us that people who look like us, like the things we do, talk the way we do, dress the way we do, do the things we do, live the places we do, are recognized as legitimate people in society. Fictional representation is an acknowledgement, a mirror, and a portrait.
Two roles written as Asian, cast as Caucasian.
Number of Asian regulars proposed to be on Warehouse 13: 2.
Number of Asian regulars on Warehouse 13: 0.
Let me take a moment to clarify a few things. Claudia's character is one of my favorites of the Warehouse 13 cast; she's like an eager puppy who wants approval, acknowledgement, attention, and acceptance, bouncing from one "family" member to the next. I want to hug her and cuddle her and pet her hair and play with the random colored streak in it. I like Allison Scagliotti in the role. She's a cutie.
Would an Asian actress as Claudia bring the same "feel" as Scagliotti in the role? I doubt it. But would an Asian actress in the role not have been able to capture the "family" dynamic of the Warehouse 13 cast? Could an Asian actress not have been a "daughter" to Artie, a "little sister" to Myka, and the "annoying but lovable thorn in the side sister" to Pete?
Because that's the implication. Or one of them.
I'm not saying Scagliotti meant to imply that in her answer to the TBL interview question. But I'm going to contend that her answer is a very loaded one (almost because of its casualness), with implications I'm going to string out whether or not they're founded. Because I don't want to feel like the only one who was bothered by what she said.
Scagliotti said she read with a lot of ("fantastic"!) actors, one of the implications of that being that some of those actors were, well, Asian! (This may also be assuming that the casting call specified Asian in any form, but I'm not going to hold my breath in trying to convince myself of that. If it did, I have a hard time believing that every Asian, English-speaking actor seeking work didn't show up for the audition, because that is an aggrieved sector of artists.) It is, depressingly, no surprise to me that SyFy would not approve. But what gets me is that second part.
I keep getting hung up on one phrase: "but something just didn't gel."
What does that even mean?
Because even Scagliotti said that she read with a "bunch of fantastic" actors gunning for the role of Steve. If some of those were of the Asian persuasion, what does it mean that they didn't "gel" with the dynamics of the show, which is pretty explicitly a (surrogate) family dynamic.
"Asian" doesn't fit into a "white" family? Does someone need to tell this to all the white parents adopting Asian children?
I don't know what that phrase means.
I don't know and it bothers me.
Because what does it matter what the color of her or his skin would have been for an ethnic minority that has, more or less, learned to be invisible in that respect? The silent, stoic, hardworking "model minority" who modeled so well that when you talk about issues of "race" in the United States of America, you are rarely consciously including "Asians" in that term.
It bothers me to know that there could have been more Asian representation (in a fun, casual, family environment!), but perhaps, the implication is, something about that "Asian" moniker made that particular aspect untenable in that setting. I mean, does it bother me a bit that the role of Claudia, the geeky, awkward techie nerd was originally slated as Asian, thus a bit stereotypical in itself? A bit, but not as much as I am bothered that that didn't happen at all. And to know it could have.
Am I bothered when "Lost Girl" touts out a train of painful stereotypes across multiple ethnicities--Russians, Latinos, Asians, I'm sure there are more--and no one else seems bothered by this? Yes. Am I bothered that this is acceptable and even expected and somehow serves as self-explanatory narrative shortcuts? Yes.
I'm so bothered, I can't even pinpoint how to talk about this pervasive issue of identity and representation or even grasp at the number of straws I've been trying to sort out in my head. I have, after all, thought a lot about being Asian American and Asian identity, both my own conflicted feelings about it (because of conflicted messages directed at me!) and how society treats it, how that has shaped my identity, how my identity has been shaped, how assimilation has dictated what is "normal" or "abnormal" for me, how media warps or reflects it. Heck, I did a whole podcast with just_keep_on about being Asian American.
There is a problem here, I'm just not sure where to point fingers. And I'm not the only one:
me: so I've been stewing on a post I want to write but I'm not quite sure how to put it into words about what bothers me
but in an interview
Allison Scagliotti, who plays Claudia on WH13 [Warehouse 13], mentioned that the role had originally been written for an Asian person
likewise a new role introduced in Season 3
was written as an "Asian" character
but in casting
it went to a Caucasian actor
and she said something interesting in two parts
the implication that trying to cast Asian meant that "something wasn't gelling"
and that Syfy apparently didn't approve of a whole bunch of actors, whom I presume may have been Asian
and it just . . . bothered me
FAA: sigh
me: yeah, seriously
but it particularly bothered me
because the way they talk about WH13
is as a "family" dynamic
that it was deliberately built and written that way
and the character of Claudia
was deliberately meant to be Artie's daughter figure
and kind of the little sister figure to everyone else
so part of the implication of not "gelling" is that some Asian-cast person didn't fit into that dynamic
whatever that means in terms of mannerisms/interpretations that auditioning actors brought to the scene
FAA: Honestly if they already cast it as sort of a daughter figure that makes a lot of sense that they cast the white girl. Also the fact that the hacker was supposed to be Asian is not even surprising.
me: right
on both counts
but
FAA: The problem is not really just the producers though but the audiences.
me: both
it's a cyclical problem
if you don't put it on the TV
then you can't get anyone to judge it
but if you just assume what the audience wants
FAA: Yes, I'm not saying it's not the producers, but overall the reaction is quite negative because white people don't feel any connection with people of color.
me: then you're never going to put it out there
FAA: (then of course bitch about affirmative action and pretend racism isn't real)
Yes but the problem is also when they put it out there, it gets shot down.
I mean, people always make jokes but tv shows featuring black actors largely have black audiences.
I mean there are exceptions of course.
I'm not saying it's because this is natural but like let's say...
Margaret Cho did the series, All American Girl? It lasted two seasons and was canceled because a show featuring an Asian American just didn't connect with the majority of the audiences. The internalized racism that the country perpetuates gets reinforced by the media.
And what they do show is always stereotyped which tends to just reinforce the racism.
me: right
but then you do have the random . . . phenomenon?
something that slips under the radar
like I'd say Cristina on Grey's [Anatomy]
WHO IS SUCH AN INTERESTING CASE
FAA: It's this nasty cycle that doesn't get addressed because people seem to think that civil rights passing means racism is erased.
me: since her actor is very firmly an Asian American
FAA: Yes but she also somewhat enforces the stereotype of a cold, driven and hard working Asian Americans that are 'know it alls' =|
I'm not sure how her character has evolved.
I haven't actually watched since season 5.
I'm not saying Cristina isn't great but of course there are exceptions but it doesn't help at all.
The other thing that makes Cristina more easy for people to accept is generally that aside from her skin color and that stereotype, she is like totally westernized
Because what white people hate most is seeing cultural differences.
me: omg
you watched five seasons?
I don't think I watched one full one
FAA: Oh, well lesbians.
But really, Cristina did not retain any cultural heritage which is not a BAD thing but it's another reason why.
me: *nods*
I don't disagree with you
FAA: I'm not saying people of color must retain their heritage, but to be relatable and likeable to a western audience it definitely helps.
It's like...
When reddit basically becomes Stormfront they complain about ghetto culture.
'ghetto'
And basically the culture which is different than theirs which may or may not include loud behavior and other factors. Dressing differently is seen as 'thuggish' and whatnot. People don't relate to crimes.
Look at the Trayvon Martin case? Most people wanted to point him out as some sort of gangster thug and pointed out problems in his past and complained about people posting pictures where he looked 'innocent' as though it was some sort of crime.
[...]
FAA: There was this great blog post my friend sent me the other day complaining about the Boston Marathon and how the nation grieves for the death of white children and doesn't care at all when black children are killed in crimes or point out reasons about why they deserve it.
As I was trying to parse my thoughts through the assertion that maybe skin color has everything to do with the amount of sympathy and empathy an audience feels with a character, another Asian American and the person who kept pushing WH13, arbitrary_greay, appeared to hit me up with word vomit:
Arbitrary Greay: so
what I came up with
it's expectations
and how they become so ingrained that they become instincts
so even when trying to move past prejudices they have influence
in this case, it's Asian stereotypes, particularly as they pertain to accents
me: are you kidding me
are you telling me
that a host of Asian Americans and Canadians
didn't show up
who spoke perfect English?
no
I will say
Arbitrary Greay: no,
the problem is
me: that I doubt the casting call specified Asian at all
I had a convo today with someone else
who put it very well
just
that
well
Arbitrary Greay: even I sometimes do a mental double take at Asians not having an accent at all
wh13 wanted to have its cake and eat it too
me: audiences don't sympathize with non-Caucasians that well
Arbitrary Greay: they wanted an Asian with the geeky fandom tendencies
which plays to stereotype
that should work
me: right
that itself is problematic in a different way
as my friend and I also discussed
but
two characters
Arbitrary Greay: but they also want snarky banter and a familial chemistry with the rest of the pasty white cast
me: both recast as Caucasian
because something wasn't "gelling"
in the "family"
Arbitrary Greay: you do get Asians who can do that
do the snarky banter
without an accent at all
me: what is this accent talk?
Arbitrary Greay: but then the subconscious kicks in
me: that is patently ridiculous
Arbitrary Greay: and an Asian without an accent doing banter actually "feels" wrong
me: the only reason
that exists
is because
Arbitrary Greay: it's a vicious cycle
me: people don't cast Asians in a role that isn't FOBby stereotyped
but
Cristina Yang [Grey's Anatomy] ain't got no accent
Arbitrary Greay: we aren't used to seeing non-fobby Asian speak because they aren't common in media
me: that's where my anger is
Arbitrary Greay: but because we aren't used to it, it feels wrong when we see it
me: because you can bet ["normal"] English-speaking actors showed up
Arbitrary Greay: so we can never get used to it
me: and they were BLOCKED BY PRODUCERS
but not just for that
I think my friend was right
in that people don't sympathize with non-Caucasians as well
Arbitrary Greay: not non-caucasians
asians
because I can imagine claudia and steve as other ethnicities
me: they sympathize with white people
Arbitrary Greay: black, brown
mexican
me: other minorities
Arbitrary Greay: but east asian?
me: because all the major narrartives
are white
Arbitrary Greay: there's that stereotype of precision to east asians
me: this goes back to Stealing Buddha's Dinner [Note: This memoir. If you ever want to try to understand how I feel as a VIetnamese American, read this book.]
and the White Narrative
and how in assimilation
Arbitrary Greay: but I can imagine black claudia
or mexican steve
me: you assume the White Narrative
I cannot imagine Black Claudia XD
Arbitrary Greay: I can
we live in a will smith era
me: I just got sassy black woman--which is another fault of media representations
Arbitrary Greay: will smith and kerri washington
etc
me: but a vulnerable black girl? how often do you get that? because black women are raised to be strong women
Arbitrary Greay: claudia's not vulnerable 24/7
me: but you need her to be vulnerable
dude
did you not see Hunger Games wank?
about Rue and her being black?
and how people were like, "Oh my God, it wasn't as sad when she died because she was black and I imagined her white!!!!"
Arbitrary Greay: dead black walking?
oh
that's different
okay
me: no, that's sympathy
Arbitrary Greay: I thought it was going to be wank about dead black walking
me: when you don't empathize
because apparently audiences only connect with ~whitey~
Arbitrary Greay: yes, that's true
but I'm just saying that asians have it even harder than other races
me: because they're invisible
they assimilated too well
when you talk about race
Arbitrary Greay: well, other races can usually step in for white
me: you don't talk about Asians
Arbitrary Greay: an asian has to be cast as an asian
an asian cannot step in for a formerly white role
me: this is reverse casting
the role WAS asian
Arbitrary Greay: as opposed to will smith stepping into a formerly white role
me: not just one
two
(and one was a gay asian, at that!)
Arbitrary Greay: I watched this documentary about casting the 2006 revival of A Chorus Line
one of the roles is explicitly asian female
the two finalists
one was an immigrant from Japan (8 years in America)
other was native born
immigrant still had a slight accent
native born of course had flawless american english
and the slight fob to the immigrant's speech gave her more spitfire, which fit the role better
6:18 PM
the native born was too smooth
immigrant got the role
[Note: The documentary was Every Little Step. Watch it on YouTube. Relevant time stamps are 15:33 and 1:04:10.]
me: and Ms. Saigon is usually Filipina
and?
Arbitrary Greay: so
I imagine something similar might have happened with WH13
they wanted an asian who could banter
they got many who auditioned who could do that
me: "Your white accent as a white person is so much better!"?
Arbitrary Greay: but in their own minds, they were looking for tiny bit of fobby
but then if you get fobby
that throws off the chemistry
can't imagine that family white unit family anymore
me: oh
wow
wow
I just
sorry
I mean
we are
in a society
where white parents adopt asian children
Arbitrary Greay: I grew up in as white a community as it gets, especially since we chose not to go to chinese church
and like I said, sometimes I do a mental double take at a non-accent Asian talk
I have my own moments of hypocrisy
me: I grew up in PA and CA was a culture shock
but THAT'S THE POINT
you and I are the generation
Arbitrary Greay: (although, lol, CA asian accent qualifies for me, so I don't do that with my co-workers)
me: that grows up
speaking perfect English
becoming professionals
in the USA
it is our peers who are auditioning for these roles
and getting snubbed
for being, what you would suggest, is too white
in a society
that has been telling us
to become white
Arbitrary Greay: yep
like
me: when I watch WH13
Arbitrary Greay: I recently watched 21
me: I don't think anything like, "Wow, so progressive!"
Arbitrary Greay: the MIT Blackjack team movie
me: but if they had cast Asian characters in those two roles
I think I would have been super pleasantly surprised
Arbitrary Greay: WH13 is as safe as it gets
in 21, it's fucking MIT
so of course the real life events it's based on
majority were asians
in the movie, protag and romantic interest are white
me: I'm just saying this is the problem
Arbitrary Greay: two asians shown being on the team
me: and AS's interview just points to it
with a big honking blinking sign
mostly because how casually she said it
Arbitrary Greay: neither are portrayed as super nerdy or any accents
and they just fade into the background
the male one is given a cursory kleptomania quirk
the female one has no defining traits
at all
neither are given development, of course
so on the one hand, their asian-ness does not define them
on the other hand, fucking NOTHING defines them
me: they're Asians at MIT, that's self explanatory--we're supposed to be thankful they were included
Arbitrary Greay: but
when women get roles where gender does not define them
they still get applauded as gender-progressive
me: the thing is
Arbitrary Greay: even if writing characters as gender-blind or race-blind is only halfway there
me: if you had put an Asian into Claudia's role
her Asianness wouldn't have defined her
Claudia is about being lost, vulnerable, seeking approval, attention
she was pretty explicitly meant to be Artie's daughter figure
and that phrase "something didn't gel" really bothers me
Arbitrary Greay: again, I grew up in a white environment
and I tend towards non-white friends
even in high school
me: see
I grew up in a white environment
Arbitrary Greay: when it was a special academy
me: and almost all my friends were white
Arbitrary Greay: and it was probably over 60% asian
my circle was primarily white
me: yes
my brother and I once put it this way to each other
"When I am with white people, I feel Asian. When I am with Asians, I feel white."
Arbitrary Greay: I don't gel with asians unless there are non-asians also present as a dominating presence XD
and homg dealing with non-geeky asians has been really really weird
me: but I gel so easily with white people
with no asians present
which would have been Claudia
Arbitrary Greay: fratboy californian asians
"why do you have an interest in football!?" XD
me: but that's also the point
Asians are just like any other people
they have a wide range of interests
because they're PEOPLE
and INDIVIDUALS
Arbitrary Greay: when they're allowed to be
isolated asians, I think
tend towards geeky because of both
society expectations
and that fandom offers them an outlet of social interaction they can get
me: I think part of it is isolation
Arbitrary Greay: because of a racial divide
me: yes
Arbitrary Greay: california
you have a smorgasbord of asians
growing up together
me: see
Arbitrary Greay: everything is normalized
me: I don't know if that's true
in that
I grew up
where it was predominantly white
Arbitrary Greay: then you get complete non-stereotypes
me: but there were a lot of Asian kids that gravitated into one community
like that Chinese Church
and part of it became about REJECTING that
to assimilate
Arbitrary Greay: reminds me of that Jersey Shore korean version show
K-town or smth
me: which Bich Minh Nguyen put so beautifully and poignantly in her memoir
Arbitrary Greay: where the cast was all "FUCK ALL ASIAN-NESS"
me: ahahaha
yes
because
you know
what you see
is a stereotype
on tv
and in media
and you don't want to be that
you don't want to be the fob with the accent
Arbitrary Greay: people were like "ooh, this could be a platform for kpop!"
but the cast were all fuck that shit
repping asian pop culture would just be adhering to the stereotype
me: I think about Saving Face a lot
about how Vivian's story didn't get explored but I think about it So Much
that she was clearly the kid who is like the exception that proves the rule in some respects
and yet the stereotypical Asian in others
and it's so glossed over
Vivian is totally out to her parents
and her Mandarin sucks (totally assimilated next generation)
her parents speak to her in heavily accented English (something I know very well!)
and yet she is pushed to be the prodigy by her overbearing, achievement-seeking father
and it's So Glossed Over it's kind of beautiful and yet also frustrating
Arbitrary Greay: it's a dilemma
me: (of course, Saving Face was a film made by an Asian lesbian, so, like, she Gets It)
and the problem is
of course
Arbitrary Greay: 1st gen want to promote asian-made pop culture
into american culture
me: are there Asians in the writer rooms?
Arbitrary Greay: 2nd gen want to get away from that
and listen to american artists
there's not much of a push for american-born asian pop culture
me: I don't care what the Asians want
I'm talking about Asians in narratives
because they're not there
so you default to . . . white
Arbitrary Greay: there's hawaii five o XD
me: where ALL THE ASIANS are cast
seriously
as in
the five
who can get work
Arbitrary Greay: and they are all fandom alumni
me: I remember the incident
not too long ago
with the play
that had not cast asians
in Asian roles
and the real anger that that spurred
[Note: The play I'm referring to was "The Nightingale," which did a workshop performance at the La Jolla Playhouse, CA. The production crew came under some fire when they cast no Asian American actors for a play that took place in a "mythical China." The forum that was held took place in the summer of 2012, I believe.]
Arbitrary Greay: you know
me: in both actors and the Asian public
Arbitrary Greay: you get some white writers every now and then who try to push asian vehicles
and sometimes they're even hits
but they never go anywhere beyond those individuals
like Rodgers
Richard Rodgers
he married an asian
wrote South Pacific
Flower Drum Song
The King and I
three fairly classic musicals
didn't go anywhere
me: it's not about "going anywhere"
Arbitrary Greay: Miss Saigon is like the only legacy
me: it's about inclusion
forget the fact that the role was even written for an Asian
and was cast as white
I just imagine all these Asians trying for roles who can't get roles
Arbitrary Greay: it's no-win
if they gel, they aren't asian enough
or they just can't gel
me: see
that is such a bullshit phrase
Arbitrary Greay: like how there wasn't an asian in the main cast of firefly
me: what does that mean
what does NOT GEL mean
Arbitrary Greay: another case where the main cast was renowned for how it gelled
the chemistry
like in that 21 movie
well okay that was a bad example
me: so
Arbitrary Greay: because NO ONE had chemistry with anyone else in that movie XD
me: one of my family's long-time American friends
is this big ol' Jewish guy
who was always UP IN MY BUSINESS
and still is when he wants to be
and it's this weird uncle-like dynamic
is that not gelling?
Arbitrary Greay: probably doesn't come out well on screen
like with black-white
you had the images of white kids and the old kindly black slave babysitter
me: this is what I mean by bullshit though
like
Arbitrary Greay: but asian-white interaction?
me: Christina and Meredith are practically OTP
Arbitrary Greay: you got south pacific
and that's basically it
me: they are brotp
Arbitrary Greay: somehow the main brotp on hawaii five o is white-white
wtf
me: that sounds like proving the point about audience sympathies lying with ~whitey~
that is
like
at least one person needs to be white
in the dynamic
Arbitrary Greay: and I'm pretty sure they had to make the two koreans cousins or they would have inevitably become an asian-asian couple and sectioned off
me: no
because clearly the Asians will fall in love with white people
that's just standard narrative
or at least the woman
Arbitrary Greay: there's two ways with this
there's fall in love with white person because of white fever
but there's also "same-race couple, subsequently become boring and invisible"
see glee
me: but she fell in love with white people later
what's her face [Jenna?] recently fell in love with BLAINE
THE GAY WHITE MAN
I can't even remember her name
not that that matters
Arbitrary Greay: she fell in love with white person first and homg, had screentime
she hooks up with "other asian"? relegated to background
so what I'm saying
is if in hawaii five o
me: precisely
Arbitrary Greay: if the two koreans weren't cousins
me: so if you want sympathy from an audience
a white person needs to be involved
Arbitrary Greay: they would have hooked up with each other
and promptly become background
because remember, back in the day
minorities in media HAD to hook up with the same race
me: or they died?
Arbitrary Greay: coupling segregation
me: yeah, Ms. Saigon XD
that is basically the story
he couldn't take them both to America, his Vietnamese mistress!!!!
Arbitrary Greay: especially if they were the second lead in a romantic love triangle
me: (who is played by a Filipina!)
Arbitrary Greay: the white otp hooks up
oh wait, random minority of opposite sex shows up so second lead can have a happy ending!
jacob will find someone in his own native tribe!
instead of interfering with the pasty white perfection of bellaedward!
me: but
he ended up imprinting on their daughter
so
Arbitrary Greay: yeah I know
me: um
whitey
WHITEY PERFECTION
Arbitrary Greay: but I mean that that's the situation that used to be the norm
coupling segregation
so a minority hooking up with a white without any fuss over being inter-race is still kinda progressive
me: it's actually so much rarer now to see people of color courting people of color
because whitey is like so much superior?
I mean
Arbitrary Greay: because producers are bending over backwards to avoid being seen as couple segregationists
me: my own tastes are whacked in this way
because, unf, white women
Arbitrary Greay: and hispanic
you seem to enjoy the hot latinas
me: I couldn't date one
they'd walk over me like a doormat
they are feisty women
Arbitrary Greay: you wouldn't enjoy that? :3
me: in bed? yes
in every other aspect? no
Arbitrary Greay: heh
hmmm
me: like I think about the L Word
and since its core cast was white women
any minority
Arbitrary Greay: I seem to be more varied in ethnicity tastes for males
me: just hooked up with white women
except Bette, who was mixed XD
Arbitrary Greay: but tend more towards whites in females
me: and she was fucking power dyke [by which I meant, of course she was a power dyke, being a mixed colored woman!]
Arbitrary Greay: I can imagine dating any ethinicity guy
but can't imagine dating minority girl
me: I have a hard time
that is
I can see myself dating almost every ethnicity but black
which is terribly racist of me
[...]
Arbitrary Greay: huh
that's another sad thing
[...]
it seems like characters are only allowed to be one type of minority
either sexuality or race
can't be both
that would be overkill
too alienating
(thank you naya rivera)
[Note: I didn't catch this while chatting with AG, but you can include Kalinda in "The Good Wife" and Emily Fields in "Pretty Little Liars" as lesbian women of color in pop culture. MTV's series "Underemployed" had an adopted Asian American lead character. Whoo! I may not watch Pretty Little Liars, but damn if I don't love those recaps!]
and then the examples from overseas pop culture don't count because in the home culture, it's a story about a majority character
are there any black lesbian rappers out there?
me: probably
XD
[Then AG had to go to bed because of ~music streams~.]
AG and I tend to sound like we're arguing, but we aren't, really. We both come from the same starting point: There is a problem regarding Asian (American and/or media) representation. What we go back and forth about is: What is the shape of that problem? What is the root of it? Why is there a problem?
I'm going to shill you Stealing Buddha's Dinner by Bich Minh Nguyen so hard, you don't even understand. The beauty of Nguyen's memoir lies in her knowledge of how assimilation can happen through consumerism and consumption, of food, of narratives. She was a little Vietnamese girl growing up in America, reading every book she could get her hands on, and devouring all these tales . . . with white protagonists . . . and white narratives . . . and white framing . . . and she wasn't white. And one day she realized that. She. Wasn't. White. (Guys, I have read this book to anyone who can get past my lock.)
Not being white in a society that enshrines the white, often middle class narrative means that you are so often defining yourself against something. What aren't you? What are the things you do not have? What things do you do that "they" do not?
It is an "Other-ing" experience. Especially when there is no "like" object, no "similar face" to your own, to judge yourself against. Or the face that looks similar to yours acts in ways that bear no resemblance to you.
And yet, rereading those conversations, I am struck by what FAA said about Cristina Yang on "Grey's Anatomy" being "totally Westernized" and that that makes her more easily acceptable, even if she carries some stereotypical "Asian" traits. If the writing for Claudia and Steve would not have changed regardless of who had been cast, wouldn't Claudia and/or Steve have been just as "Westernized" and palatable? In the writing, the color of the actor's skin would not have been an issue unless the writing made it an issue.
So what was the issue in the execution?
I am troubled by AG's hypothesis. The implication being that in the writers' minds (who presumably are not Asian themselves), when they created an "Asian" character, they assumed certain traits about that character. AG hangs it on "accent," that accent being what is considered the "fresh off the boat" Asian inflection that "Lost Girl" used to such teeth-grinding degree in 3x08(?) and every other Asian actor bemoans having to assume for an Asian-specific role (because, unbelievably, it's not their natural speaking accent! Because they speak perfectly natural English! I apparently speak Pennsylvanian English! That is my "accent"!). But what they got in auditions went against expectations or, because they were expecting persons with certain traits (stereotypes?), the reality did not match the vision. The failure may have lain in pigeonholing.
What truly confuses me is that what I see here is an effort toward inclusion . . . that fell through. I had operated mostly on the assumption that writers didn't even remember to include Asian characters when formulating casts and pitching shows, but this demonstrated the exact opposite to me. That here were writers that envisioned Asian characters and that something about that actually didn't work out.
And it is more interesting to me that I wasn't angry about any casting in WH13--though even color blindness couldn't stop you from noticing how white that cast is--until I learned that there had been an opportunity for Asian casting and it disappeared. It is the same type of anger that infused that La Jolla Playhouse "Nightingale" affair. The sense of "You took that away from me." Asian Americans could have had something shiny but you made sure that we didn't.
Which points to something that troubles me even more: Why am I not just generally angry at the lack of Asians in a cast or on the screen instead of only being angry when there could have been a concrete possibility of more Asians on my screen? That is, Why doesn't everything ring false if I never see an Asian cross my screen when in my daily life I encounter Asians all the time? Why do I just accept that the whiteness on my screen is "right"?
Why is the White Narrative "my" narrative? Why am I always asked to sympathize with the white protagonists? Why do I? Why is there only one Asian American movie I love? (SAVING FACE.)
Seriously, don't tell me I'm the only one bothered by this.