Where Are All the Plain Women?

[_ocelott_]

At Polaris, we had an interesting panel on this topic. (Ok, with one panelist and a small handful of participants, it was more like a discussion led by Kenneth Tam. Let me share the description for this particular panel before I get into my musing and ranting

Comments

*blink*

[talyssa]

I... honestly don't remember michael's wife being described as hot. I guess I have a kind of valkyrie mental image of her? I actually don't recall sargeant murphy being described as hot either. Just cute in a 'awww you're so tiny and cute' way. I never really got the ridiculously hot women vibe from those books -- more of a 'all these women are appealing in their own way' vibe which I am comfortable with. Then again I really didn't read them too closely.

What about Thursday Next? never described as hot, too old to really fall into that category anyway. Actually all the women in those books are described more by personality and style of dress than anything.

Re: *blink*

[_ocelott_]

Oh, yeah. Micheal's wife is hot. Granted, the first time we meet her she's very pregnant, but there's some point in one of the later books where Harry is checking her out and essentially thinks "All right, Michael!" The word cute is always used in Murphy's description, but it's understood to be an attractive cute, instead of "aww... puppies!" I can understand a character like Bianca being ridiculously hot, since she uses vampire glamour to make herself appear pretty, but when every single female character is given a lengthy description of how very very attractive she is, it grates on me. I mean, how is it possible that Harry has never met an average-looking woman? GAH!

Re: *blink*

[talyssa]

I guess I don't remember them that well. I always got a "I am desperate and lonely and love women" vibe from harry but never a "all the women in this series are unbearably hot" vibe. I guess I wasn't paying attention.

my problem with the dresden files was actually the paternalism, not the female characters themselves. And I've never been QUITE sure if the paternalism is a characterization for harry or the author preaching. It was not that evident in the codex alera books (beyond that all the women who feature promininently are 'child-like' --- okay now that I think about it maybe that's it).

The paternalism is SO obnoxious in the first few books that I almost put them down. "oh its not MY fault that I must be chivalrous with women, its just the way things are. I'm such a good person for restraining my baser self from their delicate womanliness." Bah.

But they are nothing like the merry gentry books where all the men come in beautiful rainbow colors shapes and sizes. Its still problematic from a feminist pov, but

Re: *blink*

[_ocelott_]

I tried really hard to like the Dresden Files. I know a number of people who just love them, but I couldn't get past the way the treatment of the female characters. Like you, Harry's chauvenistic attitude bothered me, and then when every female character is gorgeous and described in great detail (as opposed to the male characters, who are get very little description), well, I didn't make it too far into the series.

And yes, it's just as bad when it's the other way around. You can't create a world where everyone is pretty, or where every member of a specific gender is pretty! It's just WRONG. (Also annoying.)

[goldfishsara]

It honestly doesn't matter to me whether a character is described as hot or not - I tend to form my own ideas of characters' appearances. Sometimes I'll picture someone with dark hair and then come across a reference to them being blond (or vice versa) and be totally surprised by it.

I think attractiveness only really matters if it affects the story in some way. Anita Blake, for example, needs to be hot if she's going to attract a guy like Jean-Claude - no one would believe that he would fall for her if she were plain and mousy. Frodo Baggins, on another hand, has no need for hotness, because everyone's too busy flirting with Aragorn.

I did once read a couple of mystery novels in which the PI was a very overweight woman, but I can't recall the titles or the author. Her size did have some subtle effects on the story (there was no chasing of perps down darkened alleyways or anything), but for the most part, it just seemed like a gimmic.

[controuble]

Donald Lam was the leg-man, while Bertha Cool was the brains in one of the OLD mystery series I used to read (Earl Stanley Gardner writing as A.A. Fair). Bertha was built like a brick outhouse IIRC. She was definitely NOT chasing perps.

[_ocelott_]

My issue with Anita's hotness isn't so much the Jean-Claude attraction. It's more that later in the series, every single character seems to find her absolutely irresistable, and that becomes the plotline, more or less. When a whole series centres around the protagonist's mad powers of attraction, there's an issue. Nobody can be attractive to everybody, since people have a myriad of different tastes. (For example, I honestly don't get the big deal with Vin Diesel.)

[talyssa]

*licks vin diesel all over*

but yes, that is anitas problem. everyone who ever meets her wants to have sex with her. all of the men, a few of the women.

actually i think my problem is that all of the men DESPERATELY want to have sex with her and ONLY her, no other woman will do. otherwise if you point to average women on the street and say to 100 guys "if you could have sex with that woman with no consequences, would you do it" I sincerely doubt you'd get very many "no"s. A couple religious maybe.

Try the Mars Books!

[ed_rex]

And, uh, for the record? I'd kind of like to see a book about overweight ugly octogenarian who uses wisdom and intelligence to help change the world. Just sayin'.

Kim Stanley Robinson's Mars series is chock-full of octogenarians (and beyond) who are not necessarily hot at all but nevertheless have all sorts of wise and intelligent ways of changing the world.

Re: Try the Mars Books!

[_ocelott_]

Oooh, that sounds like it could be fun. I'll have to check those out.

Re: Try the Mars Books!

[ed_rex]

It's hard SF, but with a very human face. Ecology, politics and love blooming over the age of 200, all admixed with the epic story of the colonization of Mars - what more could you ask for?

The trilogy even includes not one - but two! - constitutional conventions. Not something you see every day in SF. Er, but maybe that's not a strong selling-point.

[juushika]

I don't see this trend, actually. I haven't read much of the current "mainstream urban fantasy with fearless heroine" books, but the fearless heroines which I find most memorable were many things—and not primarily beautiful. Of heroines in Elizabeth Bear's Dust, one is average—not unattractive, but not worth a second glance—and the other is slim to the point of being angular and lanky. Cherie Priest's heroine Eden is perhaps too strong and too brave, but she's not too pretty: she tramps through woods at night, through the middle of floods, wearing boots and tying her dirty hair out of the way.

Meanwhile, the most beautiful character in Brennan's Midnight Never Come is the villain

[_ocelott_]

I've actually only run across a few characters that have made me roll my eyes at their amazing hotness. Generally those books have plenty of other issues, and so there's no shortage of things for me to be whacking my head against the wall over. (Elizabeth Haydon's Rhapsody comes to mind...)

I've actually come to the conclusion that readers don't always pay particularly close attention to the character descriptions the authors give, preferring instead to put their own ideals on the character. Consider Severus Snape (of Harry Potter fame), who has a huge fangirl following, all of who think he's the hottest thing in fictional history. In the books, however, he's written as quite an ugly fellow, sallow face, hooked nose, greasy hair, and all.

[thedierdre]

I find that when I am reading the characters develop on their own in terms of personality and appearance (sometimes changed because the physical description eventually comes along which usually cheeses me off because I had a certain idea in my head about appearance and now its been forced to change) . I agree it can get a tad distracting and annoying. I tend to appreciate authors who give you little idea what the character is like. You end up more interested in how the character responds then how they look. Guess its genre specific...while that may not be totally true some genre's are worse then others

[_ocelott_]

I am all about personality over a physical description.