Wonderful World of Academia: They're ruining our military!

[gelbes_gilatier]

So, since Panetta announced the lift of the ban on combat for female soldiers (only not really, so those tough boys in the infantry won't get too afraid of being emasculated), there have been loads of reactions. My least favorite ones are by military historian Martin van Creveld who thinks introducing women into combat MOS will "wreck" the US

Comments

[hanseatic_keks]

It also seems that the concentration on the US without looking beyond one's nose and pretending the US is the only country that ever attempted anything like this is another contributing factor.

Ich denke mal, das ist das größte Problem. Man muss sich ja nur mal die Kriege der letzten Jahre angucken und wie sie im generellen Bewusstsein sind. Da fällt einem eben hauptsächlich die USA als Kriegspartei ein. Oder kommt's mir nur so vor, als wären die ständig irgendwo mit drin?
Naja, jedenfalls. Zumindest ich hab das Gefühl, dass die USA sozusagen DIE Kriegspartei schlechthin ist und deswegen guckt man halt hauptsächlich, wie's bei denen läuft und alle anderen Armeen sind sowas von unwichtig und was die machen kann man sowieso nicht damit vergleichen bli bla blub. If you know, what I'm trying to say. Oder auch nicht.
Irgendwie war das vorhin in meinen Gedanken noch logischer...

[gelbes_gilatier]

Da fällt einem eben hauptsächlich die USA als Kriegspartei ein. Oder kommt's mir nur so vor, als wären die ständig irgendwo mit drin?

Sagen wir's mal so: läufts gut, waren es die USA. Läufts nicht so gut, war's der Rest der NATO... (wir sind aber, was man nicht vergessen darf, ja auch immer gerne mit dabei, aber oft genug irgendwie nicht so richtig und nur halbherzig. Zum Teil aber an Orten, an denen die USA nicht ist.).

Irgendwie war das vorhin in meinen Gedanken noch logischer...

Ja, nee, das ergibt schon Sinn. So'n bisschen das, was in einem Kommentar weiter unten gesagt wurde. Die USA sehen schon, was in anderen Ländern läuft. Aber sie sind halt einfach was so besonderes, dass man es nicht vergleichen kann. Wenn ich das so richtig gelesen habe :D

[justaotherwitch]

Really interesting topic. I'm jotting down a couple things on my phone right now, but would be happy to chat more once I get out of work.

I think you're on the right track. I think the overall culture of the US, where women are just not as good as men, is probably the biggest part of it. One example being a congressional panel on women's health being put together with no women. Are you familiar with Jezebel.com? You could poke around there for examples of institutional/cultural misogyny.

I think it's less the US not considering that other countries have done the same thing before and more a belief that the US is just so special and different that other countries' experiences don't translate. Which is maybe even more worrying.

[gelbes_gilatier]

I'm jotting down a couple things on my phone right now, but would be happy to chat more once I get out of work.

Yes, please :)

One example being a congressional panel on women's health being put together with no women.

Oh God, yes, I remember that :S

You could poke around there for examples of institutional/cultural misogyny.

Ah, thank you! That's a good idea for backing up the patriarchic society theory :)

I think it's less the US not considering that other countries have done the same thing before and more a belief that the US is just so special and different that other countries' experiences don't translate.

I see. Good point. I hadn't considered that because that's one of the usual stereotypes about the US and try to avoid those :S And you're right, that is almost even more worrying

[rodlox]

>>a belief that the US is just so special and different that other countries' experiences don't translate.
>I see. Good point. I hadn't considered that because that's one of the usual stereotypes about the US
also known as "a special little snowflake" mindset. sadly, it tends to be true.

[rainstormraider]

Sorry!
I just came in out of the blue and I'm a complete stranger to you, so my apologies in advance for freaking you out like this but as a Canadian I found this article very interesting:

http://o.canada.com/2013/01/26/war-experienced-canadian-maj-eleanor-taylor-advised-u-s-brass-on-females-in-combat/

So far your viewpoint is very close to mine, I find all the hysteria regarding this decision to be over the top and with little to no basis in reality.

[gelbes_gilatier]

Sorry!

Don't be! That was actually really, really helpful, thank you so much! It really helps to get a completely different perspective :)

[sylvanwitch]

I'm pro-women-in-combat, but I have two observations on your notes above

[gelbes_gilatier]

So the sexual harassment thing is not bullshit. It's very real and fairly pervasive

Ah, shit, I was being tremendously unclear. What I actually meant was that there is sexual harrassment and abuse (I read in a paper by one of my lecturers that there are studies saying that the likelihood of being raped is three to four times higher for a female US soldier than a female US civilian. I shuddered :S And then went on to read about his study on female soldiers in the German Armed Forces and cases of sexual harrassment and abuse...) but that the solution can't be saying "Well, then we just won't have them serve together, huh

[sylvanwitch]

Ah, yes, I see what you mean, re: harassment. I agree entirely that it's bullshit to use that as an argument and that the solution in a reasonable world would be to educate men about harassment, how it works, what the effects of it are, how to prevent it and create a culture of genuine mutual respect. Alas, when I say these things out loud, many people treat me as though I'm some sort of hippy high on utopian ideals

[gelbes_gilatier]

Alas, when I say these things out loud, many people treat me as though I'm some sort of hippy high on utopian ideals. ;-)

You seem to live in a really weird place... ;)

The armed forces, however, have no such excuse, as (so far), they aren't governed by religiously driven legislation

ITA. Then again, you'd think that the people who joined are at least 18 and therefore practically adults... (then again, when I think about my basic training... maybe I'll substitute the "practically" with "almost"...).

Re: religiously motivated teachings at schools... that concept was really hard to grasp for me for a very long time. I actually needed a couple years to realize that for (most) Europeans religious freedom means "freedom from religion" and for (most) Americans it means "freedom for religion". That still makes teaching creationism as a "proper" content of teaching seem weird (and, excuse me please, stupid) but at least I now understand where it's coming from.

I said, "There's one simple and inarguable answer to ANY argument that

[rodlox]

>women wouldn't be able to endure the hardship that comes with frontline fighting
Israel and Turkey must be laughing their asses off at the US by now.

>warrior cult that seems to have developed
which is ironic, given how many women were samuri & members of other warrior elites in the pre-Industrial era.

>hunting packs
lions, hyenas,...and elephants and hippos, for the Do Not EVER Make Them Angry portion.

[gelbes_gilatier]

lions, hyenas,...and elephants and hippos, for the Do Not EVER Make Them Angry portion.

I know, right? I really hated that he dehumanized both men and women and then also got it totally wrong on top of that.