HBP and the Ages of the Black Sisters

[gehayi]

Something that occurred to me last night while I was reading over commentary on the early chapters of HBP:

Comments

[daegaer]

She could get married at 16 - they could have eloped, which would get rid of asking for permission. The Blacks aren't going to go after her husband through the Muggle courts (and I'm not even sure that parental permission is required for British 16-year-olds to marry), and given their prejudices aren't likely to go after them magically. It's far more likely Andromeda would just be quietly disowned, so as to avoid further public embarrassment. I'd say it's more likely that she married at 18, however, just after leaving school.

[gehayi]

Yeah, I think it's simpler to just go with marriage after leaving school. I'm not sure how Hogwarts would react to a student eloping, but based on my own experiences with private schools...well, I remember a couple of students (one sixteen, one seventeen) trying to elope in one school I attended. They were expelled.

[drop_and_roll]

(and I'm not even sure that parental permission is required for British 16-year-olds to marry)
Yes it is :)

[daegaer]

I'm rather relieved to hear that!

[cygna_hime]

The trouble with Andromeda being dead is that Tonks talks about her as if she's still alive--she says she can't do a charm as neatly as her mother does. Not did, does.

I'd also sort of assumed that the Black family tree was organised like most family trees, with the oldest child on the left (as you look at it), proceeding in order of birth. In that case, Andromeda must be the middle sister, because the place where her name was is between Bellatrix and Narcissa.

Does Bellatrix have to have been at school at the same time as Snape? I always supposed she had graduated long since, but had been part of the gang that Snape ended up in. Part of the same 'type', as it were.

Of course, I think of all the Black sisters as considerably older than the Marauders--no just-out-of-school marriage for Narcissa, oh no!--and never really tried to place Bellatrix anywhere near the same age.

[gehayi]

Does Bellatrix have to have been at school at the same time as Snape? I always supposed she had graduated long since, but had been part of the gang that Snape ended up in. Part of the same 'type', as it were.

Yeah, she does. Sirius mentions in GoF (in Chapter 27, "Padfoot Returns," page 531 of the first American edition) the kids that Snape ran around with and their ultimate fates, and he specifically mentions the Lestranges--Bellatrix and Rodolphus, in other words--a married couple who are now in Azkaban. Granted, there COULD be another married couple named Lestrange that also ended up in Azkaban, but Occam's Razor says stay with the simple.

I figured on Andromeda and Narcissa being much older than Snape, and Bella being a few years older, at least, but HBP kind of fouled that up by stating that Bellatrix was the oldest sister.

[cygna_hime]

I think that, if something has to give to make this make sense, it should be Sirius's perception of the past. Among other things, thirteen years of his life were spent in disconnected memories. I wouldn't be surprised if many of them had turned into a jumble of vaguely associated thoughts and people.

He might, for example, have named the people he now associates with Snape, whether they actually were at school with him or not. The Lestranges would have, of course, been prominent among the people Sirius associates with Snape. Alternatively, Bellatrix and Rodolphus may not have been at school with them, but if Rabastan was, the connection might be strong enough for Sirius to mention them.

Ah, the gyrations JKR puts us through by her poor math skills!

[a_t_rain]

I've been leaning toward dead!Andromeda myself, for exactly the same reasons you mentioned, plus it makes Tonks' behavior in HBP make a LOT more sense.

Of course, in real life I think it's equally likely that JKR forgot all about Bellatrix being part of Snape's gang; it's an obscure bit of minor-character backstory, and I suspect these detais are far more important to the fans than they are to her.

[gehayi]

Of course, in real life I think it's equally likely that JKR forgot all about Bellatrix being part of Snape's gang; it's an obscure bit of minor-character backstory, and I suspect these detais are far more important to the fans than they are to her.

Yes, she does tend to be rather sloppy with details, especially details relating to the adults. Plus it involves math, which she admits that she's terrible at. So I don't think JKR really thought it through.

I hadn't thought of dead Andromeda making more sense of Tonks' behaviour, but it does. Thanks for the suggestion.

[ignipes]

I think this is just a case of dealing with a writer who never bothers to figure out her character's ages (and even when she does, she sometimes does it wrong).

If Andromeda was the eldest and she was dead, wouldn't Tonks be next in line for the inheritance? She has at least as equally strong a claim as Harry (who isn't even a family member), both being the heirs of tapestry-blasted Blacks.

[lissibith]

I believe Bellatrix and Narcissa would both have a higher claim on the property than either Tonks or Harry (Correct me if my understanding of the law is fuzzy) since they're blood children. Tonks would be higher than Harry in the grand scheme of things, but depending on stipulations, Draco might reasonably have been higher in line than either. Harry just benifited from a will, in which the house could have been left to Crookshanks if so desired.

[ignipes]

You may be right. I was just going from my admittedly very poor understanding of how inheritence works in some royal families, in which parent-to-child is the first order of things, and siblings only matter if there is no child to inherit. Of course, if it's the 'rule' about half-bloods not being able to inherit, that rules out Tonks as well as Harry, so it doesn't matter.

Anyway, none of it changes the fact that Andromeda is definitely alive at the beginning of OotP (Tonks: "My mum's got this knack of getting stuff to fit itself in neatly -- she even gets the socks to fold themselves -- but I've never mastered how she does it."), and we've never been told otherwise.

[a_t_rain]

Well, Dumbledore seems to be implying that the house would go to the oldest living Black relative, so no, Tonks wouldn't have a claim unless her mother and both of her aunts bought it.

[musesfool]

But Remus says Tonks was going to her family for Christmas, which implies Andromeda and Ted (and possible siblings?), as we know it wasn't the Malfoys or Lestranges, even if Molly says, no, Tonks was spending it alone. Which, if her mother died between the beginning of OotP (when Tonks speaks of her cheerfully in the present tense) and Christmas in HBP, I think Harry would have heard (disinherited Black daughter dies in Death Eater debacle!). And also, it makes me like Tonks less for leaving her father alone on Christmas if her mother had recently died.

I think, much like Charlie and Bill, Rowling has never bothered to figure out the ages of the Black sisters.

[gehayi]

But Remus says Tonks was going to her family for Christmas, which implies Andromeda and Ted (and possible siblings?), as we know it wasn't the Malfoys or Lestranges, even if Molly says, no, Tonks was spending it alone.

Well, it's entirely possible that the family that Remus thought Tonks was going to spend Christmas with was her father's side--father, paternal grandparents, paternal aunts and uncles, etc. Heaven knows, I spent enough Christmases and Easters with relatives solely from my mother's side of the family.

Which, if her mother died between the beginning of OotP (when Tonks speaks of her cheerfully in the present tense) and Christmas in HBP, I think Harry would have heard (disinherited Black daughter dies in Death Eater debacle!).

Well, Andromeda doesn't have to have died as a casualty of the war. She could have had a heart attack. Or, like Abraxas Malfoy, a bad case of dragon pox.

I think, much like Charlie and Bill, Rowling has never bothered to figure out the ages of the Black sisters.I'm afraid you're right. I was just

[musesfool]

Well, it's entirely possible that the family that Remus thought Tonks was going to spend Christmas with was her father's side

That's possible.

Well, Andromeda doesn't have to have died as a casualty of the war. She could have had a heart attack. Or, like Abraxas Malfoy, a bad case of dragon pox.

Even if she died naturally, I think Harry would have heard. Esp. if Hermione's checking the obituaries every day.

And I still say that if Andromeda did die in between the beginning of OotP and Christmas in HBP, Tonks has no business not being with her Dad on Christmas, since it sounds like she has a perfectly fine relationship with her parents in OotP.

I'm afraid you're right. I was just trying to add up what information there was and make it consistent. Sigh.

True. Bella's the left-most name on the atpestry, though, which would indicate she's the eldest.

[katsaris]

I think, much like Charlie and Bill, Rowling has never bothered to figure out the ages of the Black sisters.

Aye -- I also think that's the simplest and most likely explanation -- and ofcourse Charlie and Bill *are* the most obvious examples of JKR not being good with dates.