Pirate!Recs, and ooooh! Meta on Elizabeth and Norrington

[geekmama]

Recs:

woolymonkey has written a hilarious pair of post-Locker fics, First Nut Out of the Locker (from Jack's pov) and Second Nut Out of the Locker: Like Nuts for Bananas (from Barbossa's pov). They are slashy, yes, but sooooo much more than that.

bravenewcentury wrote, per my request on her "Give me a topic..." meme, of Pirates and Pietists, about religion in the era of

Comments

[rexluscus]

I loved Elizabeth's moral ambiguity in DMC - her willingness to do whatever's necessary, even if that means murder. I'm not going to excuse what she does to Jack. It's hard to justify killing someone, no matter what the reasons. But we don't like these characters because they're good candidates for the supreme court, do we? Some people thought she was out of character in DMC, but she does some pretty ruthless stuff in the first film too, just not on quite that level. There is the potential there, which frankly keeps her from becoming that boring spunky faultless heroine you always see

[geekmama]

Now it was clear: if we hate Norrington, we'll excuse Elizabeth's bad treatment of him. If the audience actually likes the guy Elizabeth is rejecting, she'll look like a faithless whore for breaking it off with him, too. The more humane and non-abusive Elizabeth's relationship with Norrington becomes, the more whorish she supposedly looks. It's kind of an awful irony, isn't it?

It is! But I think they didn't give the audience enough credit, really. The relationships and the situations are so complicated, nothing is cut and dry, and that's why we love that movie, and the sequels, too. I think most of us who write fanfic view most of the deleted scenes as canon, yet retain our regard for all the characters.

[rexluscus]

Yes - Norrington's little glimmer of humanity was one of the things that made me like that movie. Another movie would just have made him a secondary bad guy, but this one bothered to treat him as a real character. And my estimation of the movie only increased the more I thought about how ruthless Elizabeth was. Emphasizing that could only have helped. Clearly the filmmakers abandoned their belief that moral ambiguity would hurt the audience's sympathies when they made the sequels, though. :)

[geekmama]

Clearly the filmmakers abandoned their belief that moral ambiguity would hurt the audience's sympathies when they made the sequels, though. :)

They really did!

I think Jack Davenport's performance in CotBP made a huge difference in how Norrington was perceived, too. He could have been very unlikeable, but there was always something about him that appealed -- that "glimmer of humanity", as you say.

[venusinchains]

Most of your argument I don't have a heartfelt problem with. I thought Liz had a tendency to preen in CotBP, something that made her flirtation with Jack unsurprising (something that would have been a part of the baggage of Class Structure and Her Place In It that you mention in other ways here). But...

"There are some vocal critics of Elizabeth's behavior in DMC, seeing her [...] chaining [Jack] to the mast as betrayal and murder."

Actually, making sure someone is helpless to escape, when you know that a deadly animal is approaching, probably would be deemed murder in court - now or then. So, calling her a murderer is reasonable. And she did have a choice. You always have a choice. The trick is finding the one you can live with (to steal an idea from Capt. T. in AWE). Even she felt she chose badly, as evidenced by her miserable state in Tia's shack at the end of DMC and her need to be "forgiven" for it in AWE. Everyone makes mistakes - so long as you learn from it, it's not a waste, or even necessarily a bad thing. But,

[geekmama]

I thought Liz had a tendency to preen in CotBP, something that made her flirtation with Jack unsurprising

Strangely, I never noticed her preening at all -- maybe for Will a little bit, in the beginning, but no more than any other young girl with a pretty new dress would -- and I remember sort of gaping in disbelief as my J/E writer fantasies were (more or less) made canon in DMC. I had seen little hint that Elizabeth more than tolerated Jack through most of CotBP, though it eventually dawned on me that her attitude had changed somewhat post-Battle of Isla de Muerta, and probably much more between that and the hanging. When she tells her father and Norrington "This is wrong!" it sounds like an old argument, as though she's been pleading for Jack's life for some time. In the year that passed between the hanging and DMC, absence obviously made the heart grow fonder, which is probably why Will's not quite as enthused about Jack as she is.

And she did have a choice. You always have a choice.Certainly she could have risked trusting Jack

[veronica_rich]

The fact is, the term "murderess" is canon to describe her, and by no less than her target himself. So I'm not sure that's even worth arguing about any longer.

[geekmama]

Well, certainly he'd say that -- the ammunition is too good to pass up.

[bimo]

(Original comment deleted and reposted to correct confusing mistake)

Speaking of Norrington, there is a tendency among some fans to consider his descent into scruffiness in DMC as OOC. I love Norrington as much as anyone (and was quite upset that they chose to "off" him in AWE), but I must say (and have said before in various debates) that he was no White Knight in CotBPHi there

[geekmama]

Disapproval of DMC characterisation and Scruffington = Blind idolisation, glorification and white-washing

No, that's not what I said. You state that you see Norrington's faults as well as his strengths in CotBP, so we are very much on the same page. Obviously his character did not have to go in the DMC-Scruffington direction -- we know this from the many many great fanfics that say otherwise. But in the movie it did go in that direction as a result of a series of horrendous, off-camera events, and though it was surprising (and to some, distasteful), it was by no means an impossible scenario.

[ex_galadhir]

I'd agree with that wholeheartedly. If I squint I can see Norrington going the way he does in the sequels. For me it's a deal breaker not because I don't believe it could happen, but just because I don't like it. It has turned a character I loved into one I sort-of pity, but also rather despise. It's not good for the fic writing inspiration, when a character you once squeed over now makes you depressed.

Since I'd rather not be depressed, I have to reject the direction they took him in and choose one of my own instead. Or reject the character altogether. It's true the people can change, but it's also true that we don't have to carry on liking them afterwards.

[geekmama]

Since I'd rather not be depressed, I have to reject the direction they took him in and choose one of my own instead.

And you do such an excellent job at that, too. Although I did love the sequels, I also love that with fanfiction we can go off in entirely different directions with plot and still be completely true to the character. Post-CotBP Norrington!fic has always been one of my favorite things -- I've written quite a lot of it myself. :))

[geekmama]

I have been working on a Norri story along those lines.

I'd like to read that!

[artaxastra]

I think you make a lot of excellent points here. And the biggest, most important one I think you're making is that Elizabeth (and Norrington) are both people of their time. Just as the game of flirtation is one of the ways that women can wield power, Norrington's ruthlessness toward "the lower element" is perfectly in character for a naval officer in the period. This is not the 21st century. Thank you for pointing that out!

[geekmama]

These movies are such a mixture of fantasy and history that making generalizations about what suits the era as far as male/female interaction, class structure etc. go seems a little silly. And yet, for the purposes of writing, we need to find that middle ground in order to be true to the tone of the movies. Not that there's any law that says one has to stay true to that tone, but that's what I'm looking for in PotC fanfiction: more of what made the movies so entertaining.