4. It always bugged me the way that they reframed the Buffy/Angel breakup as this whole mortal/immortal deal towards the end of s3. They really dropped the ball by just handwaving aside Buffy's freakout over the Angelus episode in Enemies. I always felt like they were glossing over the real issues by saying that Buffy and Angel couldn't be together because she would grow old or because they couldn't have sex or children or whatever. Ever since Amends Angel was coming into his own and yearning for his own mission and this was never really acknowledged enough for my liking. They painted it instead as this heartbreaking thing where external forces were keeping them apart when really they were ill-suited to each other from the beginning. The same thing happens in IWRY, where on the surface the text says one thing (Angel is being noble and putting other peoples' lives above his own happiness) but the subtext says another (Angel has his own mission and doesn't want to be reduced to the slayer's Joe Average boyfriend.)
I actually think IWRY does an excellent job of subverting the break-up. Angel latches onto what the Mayor says as a concrete and easy way out. It's not because he's wanting to be on his own, it's because he's a vampire and Buffy deserves better!
However, IWRY gets rid of all the supposed obstacles that Angel cited as the reason for their break up. They're obstacle-free. There's ostensibly NO reason for Angel to not get back together with Buffy.
But he doesn't. Because the break up was never about the immortality or the curse or the sunlight issue. It was about Angel growing into his own person while trying to maintain the fantasy of a perfect love affair that just can't work. It's easier to blame external factors than acknowledge that this all-consuming romance isn't the be-all-end-all you'd hoped it would be.
But he doesn't. Because the break up was never about the immortality or the curse or the sunlight issue. It was about Angel growing into his own person while trying to maintain the fantasy of a perfect love affair that just can't work. It's easier to blame external factors than acknowledge that this all-consuming romance isn't the be-all-end-all you'd hoped it would be.
Oh, you're definitely right. I just hate that the text leaves enough wiggle room so that some fans can insist that Angel was being noble and romantic and that the universe was conspiring to keep the two of them and their perfect twu wuv apart. There are definitely many instances throughout the show where this interpretation is challenged but never explicitly enough to get the message across that these two kids just don't work. It doesn't help that the B/A romance is again reframed as this doomed-but-for-circumstances thing in End of Days/Chosen.
1. There was no excuse for not even trying to think up a third way, as really, they had two fighters and two wizards, all they had to do was get her to the school. They couldn't open it, kill the spiders, and close it again? Maybe if they'd been goldfish Angel would have been all over it.
And if they couldn't, Willow was really worth more than Snyder and Larry and Harmony and everyone else who bit the dust at graduation? They matter that much less because they aren't Buffy's friends? It's always kind of chafed a little that they never even consider that.
2. I'm not sure there's always a way back, but Faith clearly wasn't anywhere near the point of no return.
6. I didn't see her solo escape attempt as having been all that successful; better to be informed than dead.
Have I ever told you how much I love that part of Passion--when Willow holds up the dead fish all strung together? Oh my gosh. That's just so funny, it kills me. Because--well, first, it's like something out of a Wayans Brothers spoof movie. But, after initial ridiculousness wears off, I get to this second layer of ridiculousness, when I start picturing Angel trying to catch the fish. Like, did he roll his sleeve up? Did he use the little net? How did he kill them? Where did he get the string? Did he bring his own string? Or did he find it there, and think--you know what would be TERRRIFYING--stringing together Willow's fish?
The whole scene just leaves me with so many unanswered questions.
I really liked Willow's 'way too late' speech. It was a nice change from the plot device of fictional good guys being naive and optimistic to a fault. As the Scooby Gang made more and worse mistakes of their own, they became more forgiving to their credit, but I think that even season 7 Willow would have ruled that season 3 Faith was just bad news for herself and anyone around her.
1. I don't see figuring out a way to keep the box as the main priority here. I think the only way to come out with a win is to destroy the Mayor, not just keep the box. If the Scoobies traded Willow for the box, here's what would have happened
( ... )
True. Though at this point in the show, the main Scoobies hadn't really gotten into the whole murdering thing, yet. They're perspective on Faith would probably be different in the later seasons.
All that said, S5-7 goes a long to convincing me that Willow couldn't have made a worse decision for herself than choosing to stay in Sunnydale. Great for the world (since Xander stopped her being catastrophic for the world) but miserable for herself.
Huh. Now that's an interesting thought. Was sticking with Buffy a good decision for any of the Scoobies? I think Xander may have come out better for it (minus the whole 'losing an eye' thing), but Willow's a bit harder to say. By the time the decision to leave town came, she'd already begun practicing magic. She likely would have continued doing so even if she moved away, and I think her identity issues - trying to get away from being nerdy!Willow - would still be present. Probably even moreso since she's in a completely different town surrounded by people who don't at all know what
( ... )
From my understanding, Willow's personal issues were given a cinder-box based on her heavy participation in slaying. She leads an incredibly violent life where violence is the answer to problems. If Willow was living as a civilian for several years, she probably wouldn't have leapt to, "This an evil guy. I need to slay him." Also, Willow's problems were contributed to by the dark magic that she sucked up- chiefly to attack Glory and raise Buffy from the dead, not to mention provide offensive magic to the Scoobs at the end of Season 5 and early Season 6
( ... )
I'd almost agree with you if we hadn't seen Willow in Lovers Walk already turning to magic to solve her problems (and attempting to put a spell on Xander without his knowledge or consent). This is the start of a pattern that I'm not convinced would go away if she were separated from the Slaying. She did the "will be done" spell as a result of Oz leaving, a mundane thing that could easily happen if she weren't in Sunnydale.
So Willow's use of magic as a crutch, as a tool for manipulation, is already there and isn't likely to vanish if she wasn't around Buffy. In fact, given her friends' general reaction to her magic-use, she'd probably feel more freedom to use said magic without their censure. I doubt her big fall would be as apocalyptic and lethal as it was in canon. For one, she's probably not gonna be in situations where death is common. But I don't have too much trouble seeing a Willow who left Sunnydale in S3 still mind-wiping her significant other and getting in with a crowd like Rack. All of the elements exist already at that
1. While it might have come down to one or the other, I think they should have spent more time trying to figure out a way to keep the box and safely get Willow.
2. I don't think they gave Faith a fair shake back when she killed the mayor's assistant. I don't think Faith ever went so evil that there was no way back to good (I don't think such a thing exists) but the Scoobie's unwillingness to help Faith out and accept her after her accidental killing is what makes it "way too late" for her to come back-and what drove her to the point she was at then.
3. Technically no, Buffy is tied to anything. She doesn't have to do slayer stuff either. However, she's responsible enough to know what would happen if she left and cares enough to not what that outcome.
4. Not insurmountable, but certainly not easy.
6. Oh Willow. That wasn't smart at all, but oh so Willow. 3.
2. I don't know. The Scoobies did accept her back. Buffy spoke to Giles of having...um...faith in Faith at the end of Consequences. Xander had tried to approach her with understanding. Willow - well, Willow's not so good with Faith. But I don't think it's the Scoobies that dropped the ball with her there. They were willing to help her. They may not have gone about it in the best of ways, but I'd put that down more to their disconnect from Faith's lifestyle than to any lack of good intentions.
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However, IWRY gets rid of all the supposed obstacles that Angel cited as the reason for their break up. They're obstacle-free. There's ostensibly NO reason for Angel to not get back together with Buffy.
But he doesn't. Because the break up was never about the immortality or the curse or the sunlight issue. It was about Angel growing into his own person while trying to maintain the fantasy of a perfect love affair that just can't work. It's easier to blame external factors than acknowledge that this all-consuming romance isn't the be-all-end-all you'd hoped it would be.
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I'd agree with this and add that he does, inbetween s2 and s3 of AtS, reach this conclusion while in Tibet.
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Oh, you're definitely right. I just hate that the text leaves enough wiggle room so that some fans can insist that Angel was being noble and romantic and that the universe was conspiring to keep the two of them and their perfect twu wuv apart. There are definitely many instances throughout the show where this interpretation is challenged but never explicitly enough to get the message across that these two kids just don't work. It doesn't help that the B/A romance is again reframed as this doomed-but-for-circumstances thing in End of Days/Chosen.
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And if they couldn't, Willow was really worth more than Snyder and Larry and Harmony and everyone else who bit the dust at graduation? They matter that much less because they aren't Buffy's friends? It's always kind of chafed a little that they never even consider that.
2. I'm not sure there's always a way back, but Faith clearly wasn't anywhere near the point of no return.
6. I didn't see her solo escape attempt as having been all that successful; better to be informed than dead.
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BWAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA *takes breath* AHAHAHAHAHAHA.
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filthy soul.
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The whole scene just leaves me with so many unanswered questions.
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True. Though at this point in the show, the main Scoobies hadn't really gotten into the whole murdering thing, yet. They're perspective on Faith would probably be different in the later seasons.
All that said, S5-7 goes a long to convincing me that Willow couldn't have made a worse decision for herself than choosing to stay in Sunnydale. Great for the world (since Xander stopped her being catastrophic for the world) but miserable for herself.
Huh. Now that's an interesting thought. Was sticking with Buffy a good decision for any of the Scoobies? I think Xander may have come out better for it (minus the whole 'losing an eye' thing), but Willow's a bit harder to say. By the time the decision to leave town came, she'd already begun practicing magic. She likely would have continued doing so even if she moved away, and I think her identity issues - trying to get away from being nerdy!Willow - would still be present. Probably even moreso since she's in a completely different town surrounded by people who don't at all know what ( ... )
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So Willow's use of magic as a crutch, as a tool for manipulation, is already there and isn't likely to vanish if she wasn't around Buffy. In fact, given her friends' general reaction to her magic-use, she'd probably feel more freedom to use said magic without their censure. I doubt her big fall would be as apocalyptic and lethal as it was in canon. For one, she's probably not gonna be in situations where death is common. But I don't have too much trouble seeing a Willow who left Sunnydale in S3 still mind-wiping her significant other and getting in with a crowd like Rack. All of the elements exist already at that
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2. I don't think they gave Faith a fair shake back when she killed the mayor's assistant. I don't think Faith ever went so evil that there was no way back to good (I don't think such a thing exists) but the Scoobie's unwillingness to help Faith out and accept her after her accidental killing is what makes it "way too late" for her to come back-and what drove her to the point she was at then.
3. Technically no, Buffy is tied to anything. She doesn't have to do slayer stuff either. However, she's responsible enough to know what would happen if she left and cares enough to not what that outcome.
4. Not insurmountable, but certainly not easy.
6. Oh Willow. That wasn't smart at all, but oh so Willow.
3.
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