Commentary Transcript: Wild at Heart
Alrighty. Whew. This is for deird1 and stormwreath and anybody else who has the non-USian version of the S4 discs which inexplicably leave off the commentary to Wild at Heart. This commentary is one of my favorites and it must be enjoyed by all.
This is my first transcription and, well, it was something of a bitch. There's a lot of people talking over each other, and some very muddled dialogue, and some stuff is just impossible to make out. I've cleaned it up as best I can, taking out the "yeahs", "ums", repetitive verbiage, etc. If you see anything that's not right, please let me know so I can fix it.
Transcriber commentary is in asterisks (*) in sections to clarify something or to note when I just could not decipher what was said.
General scene setting is in {}, however I also used regular parenthesis () to indicate if one of the commenters is, say, imitating a character on screen or making a funny voice or reacting to something a character is doing. Also, there's laughter pretty much throughout the commentary, but I note down when there's a significant pause for laughter.
And, enough. Here we go. Joss, Marti, and Seth Green.
Small disclaimer: Feel free to link to this. Pass it around. The only thing I own in it are my mistakes.
Joss: Hi, you're watching Buffy with the exciting audio commentary. I'm Joss Whedon, creator of Buffy, and with me, as ever, is...
Marti: Marti Noxon, executive producer and writer.
Joss: Writer of this episode.
Marti: Of this episode.
Seth: And Seth Green, returning alumni.
(Group laughter)
Seth: I played Oz.
Joss: Seth Green, distinguished alumni.
Seth: (As Buffy chases vamp onscreen) That's not me. And that's not me.
Joss: Alumnus.
Seth: Alumnus?
Joss: There's only one of you.
Seth: Oh right, that's true.
Joss: You'd be a group of Seths. That'd be alumni.
(Laughter)
{Buffy beating up on vamp}
Joss: Okay, we should comment. On the episode.
Marti: Stunt woman, stunt woman, stunt woman. Oh! Not stunt woman.
Seth: Check out those sneakers on Sarah. Does she have the braided topsy-tail?
Joss: Yeah.
Marti: She does. Yeah.
Seth: Nice.
Joss: Something we introduced. Also, fighting and then pausing to quip and then fighting again was something we introduced with this episode. That's not anything we'd worked at before.
Marti: It was my idea, actually. Joss sorta was like "I dunno" but then I was like "Look, it'll be fun".
Joss: We'll have quips.
Seth: It worked so well for James Bond.
Joss: You know, he does. He puns and I think we love him.
Marti: Yeah.
Seth: Oh, this is where she was practicing the stand-up comedy, though.
Joss: Right. She does a quip and he doesn't actually laugh, much like America didn't. Um...
Marti: She's sorta saying like "I give and I give and I give and people don't appreciate me". Much like it is here.
Joss: Yeah.
(Laughter)
Seth: So, Marti, how did you come up with the idea for this episode? (Softly) See what I did?
Joss: That was great. That was great.
Marti: Um, well, when I was thinking of the idea for the series in general, back in the days long before the show was even on the air, it was all my idea, I thought well ahead into season whatever-this-was, and I decided that stuff should happen.
(Some giggling and talking over of each other)
Seth: Well, I think we covered that.
{Spike's making his final, unchipped speech}
Joss: This is our inevitable bad guy teaser where Spike makes his pronouncement of doom and then actually just gets shocked and dragged off and we don't see him again for a long time cause that makes us laugh. We like to make fun of James whenever possible.
{Opening credits}
Joss: Cause he's a villain. Ooo, credits!
Seth: Oh, hey, did you see that one 12-inch Buffy toy comes with that book, a vampire book?
Joss: Yeah.
Seth: That's neat.
Marti: What?
Joss: There's a toy.
Marti: Really?
Joss: There's a thing.
Marti: So, you guys should all go out and get that now.
(Laughter)
Joss: (Funny voice) If you haven't purchased your 12-inch Buffy action figure, know that its action feature accessory's a vampire book. (Normal voice) We should just have subliminal - instead of commentary - (Funny voice) Buy Buffy products.
Marti: Oh my god, this was Straight Willow!
Seth: That was one of my favorites.
Marti: This was the beginning of her gayness cause of you.
Seth: That's one of my favorites -
Joss: Way to cause her gayness!
Seth: Which is the vampire Willow and she kinda just makes the little subtle sneaky "Hi" (Talking about a shot in the opening credits). So cute.
Marti: I mean, it's not a choice. I know people are born that way, but you were the trigger.
Joss: Yes, yes.
Seth: Really?
Marti: You were the trigger.
Joss: I hear you made a lot of women gay.
(Seth laughs)
Seth: I just left a trail of homosexuality in my path.
Marti: It's sorta the whole allure, actually.
Joss: And, you know, a lot of them didn't see it coming. Even older women...it's a thing.
{The group at the Bronze}
Seth: Do you guys still have the Bronze?
Joss: We still have the Bronze. It's been sort of destroyed and redecorated.
Marti: In a way that is imperceptible to television.
Joss: Yeah, I know. It's been redecorated, like, one of the chairs is mauve, and so we really shook it up. Nah, you can tell.
Marti: We didn't have a startling reaction to the redecoration of the Bronze. You can tell in certain - you can tell with, like, the wall of TVs and stuff. That's very cool.
Seth: You have a wall of TVs?
Joss: Yeah, there's a wall of TVs behind the stage that's very cool. There's some big bubbles and stuff and the furniture's different. It's kinda got that Japanese thing going.
Seth: I was not kidding with those sideburns.
Joss: No, you're cool, Seth, as Oz.
Seth: Those sideburns...
Joss: Time-traveling werewolf, here to solve crimes.
(Much laughter)
Joss: I'm just sorry the network didn't go with that.
Seth: Yeah, the whole spin-off notion.
Joss: They wanted the Angel spin-off and I said, "You're missing out!"
{Giles joins the group at the Bronze}
Marti: Oh that's right, this is fun-seeking Giles.
Joss: Oh right. Giles.
Marti: He's looking for some fun.
Joss: It was season 4 where Giles has no life.
(Marti laughs)
Joss: And he's forced to play guitar.
Marti: It's sort of "creepy hanging around for no reason" Giles.
Joss: You know, we've all known grown-ups like that. And...strung out on *damned if I can make this out*.
Marti: Usually, you don't let them sit with you. But in TV it's okay.
Joss: Yes. Well, he's not a stranger.
Marti: Yeah.
Seth: I think the characters on my shirt make some vague reference to vegetables. (Oz is wearing a shirt with Asian characters)
Joss: What are they?
Seth: It's some Japanese characters.
Joss: People are gonna be fascinated by these insights. I think they're gonna learn and grow.
(Mass laughter)
Joss: Learn and grow...Now, Veruca's gonna happen.
Seth: Oh, yeah, that's right.
Joss: Veruca...she came in episode 2 because we came in five minutes short so we added the scene of you seeing her for the first time.
Seth: Which was a brilliant forethought on your part.
Joss: That was key.
Marti: That was some good trivia there, Joss. Thanks for that.
Seth: Sneaking that in.
Joss: I've seen a lot of these episodes.
Marti: Really?
Joss: I watch Buffy a lot. It's no Charmed, but it's got a thing.
(laughter)
Joss: And then here's great Paige Moss being Veruca.
{Veruca's singing}
Seth: Paige Moss -
Joss: We said go sexy, but she went a different way.
Marti: Yeah. She decided to eat the microphone instead.
Seth: We actually worked together in Can't Hardly Wait. She played this sorority girl who's just dissing me in the funniest way, and this was such a different character for her.
Joss: And for you.
Seth: Yeah. It's nice. But we both got to play cool kids on Buffy.
Joss: It's like, "Finally!"
(Laughter)
Joss: (While Willow's looking sad) Oh, look what you've done! You can't hurt Alyson - I mean Willow! (While Willow's grabbing Oz's hand) Oh god.
Seth: She's touching a man!
Joss: Well, it's a thing. We went with it for a while, didn't take.
Seth: It's a phase.
Marti: But later she goes to the bathroom and she washes her hands.
(Seth laughs)
Joss: Naw, this is before you gayed her up.
(Much laughter)
Marti: Gaydorized her!
Joss: Before she was like "Let's gay!"
Seth: Her cup is actually filled with "Gay-torade".
Joss: I was very sad killing - oh, now I've given away the ending! Oh well. Uh, Paige. We were almost gonna cut to her scampering away or something.
Marti: We talked about it, yeah.
Joss: But it wouldn't have been mythic enough. You had to do her in.
Seth: Yeah.
{Oz and Willow in bed}
Joss: Bunch of sex. She was good. This is all sessy *I think he means "sexy", but he's saying it in a strange way*.
Marti: Yeah, look at all that flesh.
Seth: Yeah, that was one thing I said in the interview was this is the only show where I ever really got to be cool and the only show where I was ever naked this often.
Joss: And method. Naked all week.
Seth: Oh yeah.
Joss: It wasn't funny.
Seth: They give you a robe.
Joss: There's an arm thing going on later.
Seth: Yeah, it's actually -
Marti: They make him put some plastic on whenever he's near the craft service table, though, Joss. He had, like, little gloves.
Joss: That's good.
Seth: There were guards everywhere.
Joss: The plastic codpiece. But that's naughty. (Oz is groping Willow on screen)
Seth: Wow! That's so much more suggestive than I would have thought.
Marti: Yeah. Have you even watched the show lately?
Seth: Actually, I flipped to it and saw Spike and Buffy getting together, which blew my mind, first of all. And then secondly I thought how graphic that is.
Joss: Yeah, that was the sequence where I said "Au revoir, monsieur metaphor!"
Seth: All I could think was James and Sarah, I was trying to remember, "Did they get along?" And I thought, "Yeah, they got along."
Marti: Yeah.
Seth: You know, scenes like that are so different than normal getting along it's like, "Dude, are you okay with me?" Like Aly and I, I know it'll ruin it for a lot of fans, but we would laugh about all this stuff because we were so brother-sisterly.
Joss: Well, you guys knew each other forever, right?
Marti: Yeah, the incest thing is hot.
Seth: Yeah, we met when she was about 13 or 14.
Joss: Shh! Ix-nay on the incest-ay.
Marti: No, no. I didn't mean it.
Joss: Sorry, when did you meet her?
Seth: We met when we were both 14, and we've known each other for so long and this was just such a fun opportunity cause there's just a real safety.
Joss: It's really important. Chemistry is the weirdest alchemy that there is, and sometimes people just loathe each other but on screen...
Seth: It's hot.
Joss: It's hot in its wonderfulness. But you guys were so cute. It was a very comforting space. It was a beautiful relationship. It was transcendent. Not so much about the physical since she was gay and didn't know it.
Marti: Your gay sister, but other than that...it was sexy.
Joss: Oh, it was. Covering your massive tats.
Seth: Oh, I know. That's - you can sorta see it right there in the light.
Joss: A little bit.
Marti: What?
Joss: He's got the big ol' tats on his arms.
Marti: What does your tattoo say?
{Buffy leaving Walsh's class}
Seth: It says "I love vegetables". No, I have two different icons. Oh my gosh! There's Dan.
Joss: (Sees Buffy) There she is!
Seth: There's Asian Dan.
Joss: Asian Dan. Right, one of our regular extras. Our core group of extras who not only went to high school with our characters but all graduated and went with them to college. They were great.
Marti: Was Asian Dan ever the brunt of any particular joke or was he just always...
Joss: He was there.
Seth: He was always there.
Joss: He was next to me in the food line, with Parker, he was just obsessive.
Seth: We had just one group that you could always spot if you really paid any attention.
Marti: Oh, we had Buffy just got an A, remember?
Joss: Yeah, she made her jealous academically. It was a whole big deal. Cause, you know, there's a story going on and we care because we're all about the story-telling. Look at that shirt. It's weird. It looks like a painting.
Seth: (Buffy's wearing a kerchief on her head) Sarah's actually on her way, in this scene, to clean houses.
Joss: You know, we were going that way and they said, "What about vampires instead?"
Seth: As opposed to the whole "behind the scenes of the maid service".
Joss: If cool 70s werewolf Oz is busy solving crimes, shouldn't Buffy be cleaning? But they wanted to do a whole feminist thing. I'm not buying it, but...that's their deal.
{Veruca's eating lunch. Oz is about to join her}
Seth: Well, we don't show all the scenes where she's cleaning out my spaceship/time machine. Check out my hairdo!
Joss: Yeah, well, you know...
Marti: I like your hair!
Seth: I was dead-serious, dude. There was no joke about it.
Joss: No, it was good. It would change colors occasionally.
Seth: Yeah, which became just a fun - I like that there was the allowance for that to happen.
Joss: Well that's just him.
Marti: What's that on your t-shirt, Seth?
Seth: Is it *I have no clue what he says, and I have no clue who's on Oz's shirt*? And here's the "trying to find a purpose to be sitting here" because we both know that this is the bad thing but we're both trying to make it seem innocent.
Joss: This, actually, episode is enormously painful. When she's grabbing your hand in that club, I've been that guy. Grab my girlfriend because she clearly wants to be with that other person. So many times. It's only about the pain.
{Willow sees Veruca and Oz eating together}
Marti: And, yet, here's Willow trying to soldier on.
Joss: This just breaks my heart.
Marti: See? It's okay cause I'm here and we're all gonna talk together and it won't be awkward. But..
Joss: Except you're gonna make it more awkward and it's gonna suck.
Seth: Don't I just leave?
Joss: I've done this so many...I've been this - "Hey, I'm the third wheel" when I'm the boyfriend.
Seth: (As Willow joins Oz and Veruca) Hey, you guys know each other, right? I'm, uh, gonna go get my van *it sounds like he says "simonized", but that is nonsensical to me* or something.
Joss: I'm gonna go get my steering wheel taken from the right side of the van and put onto the left side of the van.
Seth: (Laughs) That's right!
Joss: I think that'll make it cooler, more American.
Seth: That's a bit of history is that in the first episode we ever shot where I was driving in the van, it was a right-side drive.
Joss: Episode 6, season 2. Halloween episode when you saw Willow in the hottie outfit.
Marti: It was, that's right.
Seth: I had to learn how to drive a stick with my left hand. Very awkward.
Marti: What?
Joss: We chose the van based on the exterior and nobody bothered to mention that the driver's side was all wrong and English and evil.
(Marti laughs)
Joss: You know, I mean...
Marti: They didn't tell you it was a foreign van?
Joss: No taxation without representation. I'm just putting that out there.
Marti: That's not good.
Seth: (As Oz leaves Willow and Veruca) So, I'll see you guys later. I love you, sweetie.
Joss: (As Oz) I don't wanna be touching the other one.
Seth: (As Oz) I'm gonna take this opportunity to flex.
(Pause to laugh)
Seth: Well, this is awkward. You know?
Marti: See, Veruca's all comfortable.
Joss: This is all, what she's really thinking is, "Why do I have these feelings for Veruca?" But we - nobody knew that cause we hadn't made it up yet. Oh, that's the birthday cake shirt. They actually make reference to the shirt looking like a birthday cake.
Seth: (Sympathetic) Oh...
Marti: Oh, that's why the shirt looks like a birthday cake.
Joss: Yeah...
Seth: And she's saying how she feels dorky compared to the super-cool chick.
Joss: And even to house-cleaning Buffy. With new House Cleaning Action.
Marti: She's kinda House Cleaning Commando Buffy. She's sorta in olive drab and you know...she cleans for America!
(Laughs)
Joss: If she doesn't clean those houses the Taliban has already won. *I think that's what he says, but I can barely make out the second part* Just saying.
(Pause as Willow talks to Buffy)
Joss: You know, I bet they're talking about something real important. Think we're gonna get in trouble?
Seth: I think we should note that we don't have the audio track to this episode. So we're really purely speculating.
Marti: She's telling her she's the greatest -
Joss: Oz loves you.
Marti: - and Oz loves you and all that bullshit you tell a friend when your boyfriend is about to cheat on her. Or a boyfriend's about to cheat on her.
Joss: What she should be saying is, "He wants Veruca. He wants to do the thing with Veruca that you do with your naughty parts and there's nothing you can do about it."
Marti: Clearly you're not satisfying him.
{Oz is going down to his cage}
Seth: This is the cage that I welded myself and here I am. (Oz takes off his shirt)
(General cheers of approval at shirtless!Oz)
Seth: I just did a bunch of push ups.
{werewolf!Oz breaks out of his cage}
Marti: And here's another possum - I mean - a werewolf.
Joss: No, no, no.
Seth: That's lean right there. *"Lean"? I think.*
Marti: That's a lean cage, by the way.
Seth: Yeah, I know. I'm a bad welder.
Marti: You should plan better.
Joss: Oh, I forgot about this where you go and scare Maggie.
Marti: Yeah. I'm just saying...
Seth: Now is it me who scares Maggie or is it Veruca?
Marti: It's the two of you. Don't you remember?
Joss: That's the whole point, right? This is the big reveal that we didn't know Veruca's a werewolf yet.
Seth: Oops.
Joss: And I keep spoiling things!
Seth: Dang it!
Joss: Why? Gosh, I hope people watch this without our sound first.
Seth: Here's an interesting piece of history, though. Lindsay Crouse played my mother in an after school special when I was 10.
Marti: Huh. And now you're going to eat her.
Seth: Isn't that funny? And now I'm going to eat her.
Marti: Circle of life.
Joss: And there she is!
Marti: And that's a girl wolf.
Joss: Veruca!Wolf.
Seth: You can tell because of the hairdo.
Joss: Yeah.
Marti: She's also wearing a thong but you can't see it.
Seth: Uh oh! (As Veruca and Oz go at each other)
Joss: War of the Gargantuas. If you have a little tiny Tokyo around you, it's just like War of the Gargantuas.
Seth: (As Maggie) "They've lost interest in me and they're more interesting (sic) in hurting one another."
Joss: Or are they?
Seth: Now this was an awkward scene to film. Mainly because it's daylight, outside, in a forest with our entire crew -
Joss: An actual forest.
Marti: You were all nekid.
Seth: And, yes, totally naked. And Paige's boyfriend came by to check up on her.
Joss: Oh yeah, he did.
Seth: And I had met him before, which didn't make it any less awkward.
Marti: Were you wearing saran wrap or...a sock?
Seth: I was wearing one of those what is commonly called a "dance belt", which is, basically, a boy-thong. It's a he-thong. And, no more comfortable. And this was very awkward.
Joss: But wicked sexy!
Seth: And I'm completely freaked out, and she is, of course, "That was awesome, dude!" Which I think is what she said, right?
Joss: Yeah.
Seth: It was awesome, dude.
Joss: And then I think she becomes gay.
Seth: Right.
Joss: The thing you do. And, of course, it's the big brow-furrowing scene. We had to get a stunt guy in cause you hadn't had to do that in the show yet.
Seth: No. Very limited exhibition of emotion. (As Oz as Veruca tries to make with the post-coital pillow-talk on screen) Could you stop touching me, please?
(Pause with laughter)
Seth: No, Joss. Stop touching me!
Joss: I'm sorry, it's just this episode and it's a thing. I miss you.
Seth: I miss you, too. (Sniffle)
Marti: I just wanna ask, does the dance belt inspire you to prance about?
Seth: You know, it did for a bit. Except there were so many sharp and jagged unexpecteds on the ground and I wasn't wearing anything on my feet so my dancing was severely hindered.
Joss: The jazz hands, they were sexy, but just sorta wrong for this scene. I don't know. It was a thing.
Seth: And she's telling me that this should be alright, and I'm like, "I really wish we could just forget about this..."
Joss: "I wish your boyfriend wasn't here."
Marti: "Staring at me..."
Seth: "Please don't tell my girlfriend, and listen, I'm gonna have to kill you if you talk about this."
{Veruca and Oz getting clothes from the laundromat.}
Seth: "Seriously did I bring any clothes here cause I don't know how I'm gonna get home? I've already been arrested four times for indecent exposure."
Marti: There's some nice framing here.
Joss: It's Grossman.
Marti: Oh, it's Grossman! Okay. That's why.
Joss: David Grossman.
Marti: Not a gross man, but...
Joss: No. David. Well, he is a gross man.
Seth: Oh, this is - it actually said in the script that I was wearing, like, a pull-over polo shirt with sweat pants.
Marti: Well, yeah, cause it's not yours.
Joss: To represent the non-Ozness of it.
Marti: She has little leaves stuck to her or are those real tattoos?
Seth: No, those are real tattoos.
Joss: Yeah.
Marti: Oh, okay.
Seth: That the make-up people were excited about.
Joss: Well, her tats made sense.
Seth: I suppose so.
Joss: And she's all unashamed and sassy and you're all, "No, I don't want any part of this."
Seth: I believe what I'm actually saying is (Deep voice) "This will never happen again. This did not happen."
Joss: (In a very bizarre voice, as Veruca) "I want you. Oz, don't you see, we're meant to be together?"
Seth: (Equally bizarre voice) "No, this will never happen!"
Joss: (Same) "I think it will! I think it will because I am evil." (Normal) See? I don't know why they hired her. You know... (Strange voice again, as Veruca) "I'm going to get out of here. And then I'm going to jump in the Mach 5 and find Speed Racer!"
Marti: Chim-Chim! Stop that!
Joss: I just - you know, they wanted a girl for the part, but I thought I could have been great.
(Pause)
Joss: See, you wanna do the wrong thing.
Seth: Yeah. Cause she's dirty and she's in your ear and she can draw with her toes.
Joss: Is that an anklet or a tattoo?
Seth: Tattoo.
Joss: It's all good. See? It's all good.
Seth: "No, this will never happen again. This was a mistake because I was a wolf and I'm bad at welding."
Joss: "We destroyed Tokyo. Doesn't that make you feel wrong?"
Seth: Oh, that's right. She's explaining about the wolf's inside you, you should let it out. Don't deny your nature.
Marti: This, by the way, you know, is a metaphor for you kids at home. The whole "wolf thing"...
Joss: Yeah, it's a metaphor for...exactly what they did.
Marti: Yeah.
Joss: Yeah.
Marti: But at least we were trying back then, Joss.
Joss: I know. I know.
Seth: Trying to do the right thing, trying to blow her off, tell her it was a mistake, we can move on with our lives. She's not buying it.
Joss: Buffy's gonna have sex with Spike in season 6. Is this any worse? Think about it. Think about it! (In reply to Veruca's "See you tonight.") Okay, I'll think about it.
Seth: (Trying to make out what Veruca said) "See you round." Something.
Joss: Or "See you tonight", yeah.
{Maggie telling Riley about the wolf attack}
Marti: You know that people are evil when they talk after someone leaves, you always know that they're really...
Joss: All the evil people do. People who are evil or feel very bad about what just happened.
Marti: Yeah. Or if they say things like "Ta ta."
Joss: Yeah. Or "Ciao".
Seth: Or TTFN.
Marti: Oh, that's, you know.
Seth: That's pure evil.
Joss: What the hell's TTFN?
Seth: It's an acronym for "ta ta for now".
Joss: I didn't know that because I'm not evil!
Seth: I've studied a lot.
Joss: And here's the Blucmeister.
Seth: The first thing I notice about Marc Blucas because I met him before we ever - I ever saw any of his work is just how tall he is.
Joss: Not a small man.
Seth: No. He actually bought this gigantic van.
{Willow and Oz scene, with Willow in leather pants.}
Joss: Ah, she's trying to be Veruca!
Marti: Oh, that's right. She's wearing the sexy outfit.
Joss: With the leather pants and the quirky rocker chick.
Marti: So sad...
Seth: And I'm wearing the queerest outfit possible. And here she's trying to seduce me.
Joss: I know, and you have the scratches on your back.
Seth: And I feel so...
Joss: Which is a metaphor for...having scratches on your back...
Seth: And is just feeling so guilty and wanting to make everything right with her and feeling so horrible and that only makes me feel more horrible and I've got a lot of work to do and I'm reading the paper.
Joss: And you can barely move because you're all scritchy-scratchy from the wolfy-love-making. Tokyo-destroying.
Seth: I was always inspired because Oz, you know externally didn't exhibit all that much, but his room was so telling. The room and the van.
Joss: Yes.
Seth: He's such a quirky collector.
Joss: You've always been a van actor. And a lot of people are method, but you're just, "Put me in a van and I'll say the lines, kay?"
Seth: If I got a disco ball, I'll know what kinda of guy I am.
Joss: Exactly.
Seth: Trying to reassure her, I'm just tired.
Marti: No, No!
Seth: (As Oz) "Please don't touch me where I'm injured. I'm really really injured back there."
Joss: She wants to seduce you because she thinks you want her to be all sassy and you can't do it cause you have the scratches. You know, this is really painful. What's up with that?
Marti: I don't know. I don't know. I thought that's what you were wanting me to go for. Were you looking for...?
Joss: I thought it would be a light, funny kinda send-off.
Seth: I clearly remember you saying to me. I was like, "So, what, are we were gonna have fireworks or something?", and you said, "No, no, no. I'm gonna pack the leading up episodes with as much dark pathos as possible cause I really want everybody to cry hard when you walk out the door."
Joss: Well, they did. People loved you. I don't get it but people were...oh...you're sitting right there. This is bad.
Seth: It was fun. It was a good and well-crafted relationship.
Joss: It was.
Seth: And this was a nice and it gave it the weight that it deserved.
Joss: I was talking about that with that guy and you have to go through what Willow's going through: Pain, pain, pain. If Oz is just gonna up and leave, it's gotta just be the worst thing imaginable.
Marti: And not to get serious or anything, but to me, the whole thing about being this age and being really, truly in love with someone can be so difficult cause it's also the time when a part of you wants to be free. And the wolf, to me, is the part that both men and women have that can destroy relationships even when people love each other. And there's something so, so much about the college experience of loving someone and fucking around on them. It's just the worst thing ever.
Seth: Well, I don't wanna gush about it, but my favorite thing about working on the show was just how well you guys handled every character cause no one was just a bad guy, even the people who were doing the horrible things, like Spike. Everybody had a reason. Everybody had their own emotional agenda that was no - it was undeniably valid. You could really understand everybody's point of view, and it made the audience unable to choose sides. And that was my favorite thing about this episode was that - even though Oz is the bad guy, doing the bad things and being the ill character, it's like you understand where he's coming from, and you can see why he thinks leaving is the right thing and how he feels, like he's protecting Willow in a way. And you can see the selfishness, but you can understand from everybody's point of view why things happen the way they do.
{Willow getting guy advice from Xander}
Joss: That's the whole point. The whole point of the series. It's like, nobody thinks they're a bad guy. Nobody thinks that they're not righteous. I've dealt with people who are truly villainous. Villainous. People who have done appalling things to other people, on purpose, and they think that they're righteous. Everybody is. Everybody does. And with these guys, it's like, not only that, it's way more interesting. I don't think of Oz as the bad guy in this. I think of him as the tragic hero in this. Although Willow is the one our hearts go out to just unrelentingly and unconditionally because Alyson just has those big-ass eyes and just can bring on the pain like no other actress in the world.
Seth: She's just so darn good at this. She's really, really good at making you understand exactly what she's feeling, whether it's elation or hurt.
Joss: And also, the audience is gonna go through what she's going through in the sense that we're the ones being left. Like, we're the ones - but at the same time, Oz is the one with the tragedy of, "It's not simple for me". He does - the things Paige tells him, the things Veruca tells him are true, to an extent.
Seth: So it's like does he stay and torture everybody else or does he go and try and get himself together?
Marti: And, I don't know how true this is, but it certainly seems like an ongoing conflict between men and women. That women, it's not always true, it depends on people, but the fact that men's sexuality needs to be expressed in a certain way and women's is not necessarily in that way. It's one of the most ancient conflicts, and I like that there was some way to show this where you could show sympathy for the person who is doing the leaving and doing the thing -
Joss: I even have sympathy for Veruca. She's a different kind of person. She knows. She wears it on her sleeve. She's a werewolf. He's a werewolf. She thinks, "This is what he needs." Not just, "Oh, I'm going to steal someone else's boyfriend." That's not what it's about. It's like, he's with the wrong girl. She really believes that. So even though she'd be the most sensible villain -
Marti: She draws with her feet.
Joss: Okay, so she draws with her feet, which is a villain-y thing to do. And she does actually try to kill Willow, so eventually she goes to the bad place, but, you know, somebody's gotta do something bad or it's...Seventh Heaven.
Marti: And can I say from a girl perspective, that you're just damn sexy in this episode. You're just hot.
Seth: (Laughs) You guys made me that way.
Joss: Can I say from a questioning male perspective that you're damn sexy in this episode.
{Buffy and Oz talking}
Marti: I mean, all that torture and stuff.
Joss: I remember we spent a long time trying to figure out - we broke the story, we had it down, but we were like, we don't know what the Buffy is. This was one of the very -
Seth: I love, love, love getting to do scenes with Sarah.
Joss: Oh, she's -
Seth: It was so rare that we got to do scenes just she and I. Cause it was always in a group.
Joss: Yeah.
Seth: Yeah, and she's such a pleasure to work with.
Joss: Yeah, but I remember when we broke it we were just like, "We've gotta figure out how Buffy's agenda completely relates to this one." This is the first time we went, you know what? We don't, actually. It's like, Buffy can be strong and interesting in the episode and save the day, but this one is about Oz and Willow, straight up, and let's deal with that. And this has to be a sad person montage musical number because those are the best kind.
Marti: I always kinda think of these episodes in a trilogy, almost. There's three episodes that deal with Oz's werewolfness and Willow and them.
Joss: So Phases, this, and New Moon Rising?
Marti: Yeah, Phases, this, and New Moon Rising. I always think of those three as being about the two of you with other things going on but -
Seth: Was New Moon Rising the coming back for me?
Marti: Yeah.
Joss: Yeah, you came back.
Seth: That was one of those things where I was just so happy when I read it because it was such a quick summation of all this thing, but I didn't feel like it cheated at all. Do you know what I mean?
Joss: It was another example of, we have an episode to fit a huge issue between two people who have gone through so much together, but we got very basic things. You could control your werewolfness except around the woman you loved. That said everything. That, like, was enough.
{Veruca joins Oz in his cage}
Joss: Now, this scene. Do you remember my note in this scene?
Seth: I...don't. What did you say?
Joss: I remember exactly cause you played it and it was, you were both about to turn into werewolves, the sun is setting, and you guys played it and it was interesting and it was sexy, but it was not quite what I was going for.
Seth: Oh, wait, I do, actually! You said - if I recall this correctly - you said, "I want you to act like you're just about to come on to acid. And you know that it's coming and you feel all that tension and anxiety, but it hasn't happened yet."
Joss: Mmm-hmm.
Seth: I think that was what you said.
Joss: "Peaking on mushrooms," is what I believe I said.
Marti: Not that any of us have ever experienced that.
Joss: Luckily we've all read the great mushroom series of children's books.
Marti: The acid test.
Seth: I read the Tom Wolfe stuff.
Joss: Yeah.
Seth: And I'm seen takes of *damned if I can figure this one out* so I'm familiar with that.
Marti: Acid, acid, acid.
Joss: I had a mushroom salad one time. So we've all been there in that sense, certainly not in the "we were in the 70s growing up" sense.
Seth: (About Paige Moss) She did such a great job in this, too.
Joss: Both of you. It is one of the sexiest scenes we ever shot. That feeling of, "This thing is rising in me".
Marti: This was just one of those episodes where a lot of good things came together, too. Cause the music they found that she sings is very sexy.
Seth: She was so good at lip-syncing.
Marti: I mean, the whole thing...
Joss: And then you did that.
Marti: And that was a big moment, too, because it implicated Oz. That was a big thing.
Joss: Yeah, but you made a decision.
Seth: I made all of the decisions in this. I was the one who called her. I was the one who invited her there. And I pulled her in for the kiss. It's all incredibly culpable.
Joss: Well, it's the classic male thing of, "I want you to get naked in front of me so I can prove that I'm not going to..."
Seth: Just testing yourself.
Joss: And then...
{The scene where Willow finds Veruca and Oz together}
Seth: This is the worst..
Marti: Ah...
Joss: And, of course, Alyson playing it for the comedy, as always.
Seth: Yeah, you know she always goes for the laughs.
Marti: She's such a jokester.
Joss: The cheap laugh.
Marti: She wanted to wear that kind of big red clown nose...
Joss: The clown nose...
Marti: And floppy shoes, and I said I think that's going too far with the comedy.
Joss: But that's her. That's her instinct.
Marti: And they're naked again!
Seth: Just the...yeah, where am I? Now watch me try and - the framing of it to get the pants on in time.
Joss: Yeah, that was an issue.
Seth: All the technical...
Marti: The great thing about this is -
Joss: Pretty great framing, though, cause you guys really do appear to be in the nude.
Seth: Yeah. Well, we all but were.
Joss: And then her just like, "Oh, I'll get up as slowly as I like." She's evil.
Seth: Just really rubbing it in.
Joss: Those are the same locks we had in my dorms in college.
Seth: Trying to -
Marti: Cause wolves can't remember numbers, so it's okay.
Seth: I'm just so busted.
Joss: Well, she just won't put on her clothes. "Don't touch me!" Even I can read that. (About Veruca's tattoo) The very important mystical symbols of the sun and a dog bone.
Marti: It just kills me. I can't even talk. I can't comment.
Joss: The first time Aly did her first crying scene, the entire crew tried to comfort her afterwards. She was like, "It's called acting." There we go! That's when you raise your voice! The famous "Oz finally yells" moment. Check out the muscles. *he actually pronounces it "mus-kels"*
Seth: All I'd been doing was working out.
Marti: By the time you read the script or before that?
Seth: I had a lot of downtime in between shots. I'd just go and do sit ups.
Joss: Any time one of our actors finds out they're having a love scene, they're like, "I'll be at the gym! Bye! Fax me the pages!"
Marti: Your hair was apparently working out, as well.
Seth: Oh gosh, my hair was exercising.
Joss: Your hair has body and muscle.
Seth: And a split end in it. That's weird.
Marti: Remember when Willow - when Aly had to show her abs in the Halloween episode? She went to a special school, I think. She went to Abs-R-Us for like -
Joss: She was unhappy about that. But, then she got better.
Marti: And her abs looked fantastic.
Joss: Then she was straight nude and we cut all that footage where she was just nude all the time.
Seth: It's on the DVD, though.
Joss: Yeah. The DVD extras. Be the first on your block to collect them all!
Marti: There's really nothing you can say here, by the way.
Joss: Yeah, why are you still talking? It's not gonna help!
Marti: Watching this, why are they still standing there? I think they had to have a conversation or something like that?
Seth: Because the bad guy always has to try to explain the justification for their ill deed.
Joss: Yeah. Well, it's also a rule on Buffy: If anybody ever has sex, the person that they - the reason they shouldn't be having sex will walk into the room.
Marti: At some point.
Joss: This is season 4. Season 3 was where he walked in on you and Xander. In fact, that's what you're talking about. "But you did it with Xander!" But she's -
Seth: But she's totally calling me on it, cause this was so premeditated.
Joss: Oh, yeah. Well, there was a lame-ass excuse, bro. You should just leave the series.
Marti: You know, but she and Xander did the kissy but they didn't do the wolfy-naked-scratchy thing.
Joss: Well, there was some finger - well, it's not a thing.
Marti: Shh! Hey!
Seth: Now here's one of those situations -
{Willow walking down the street, crying}
Joss: What?
Marti: Hey, you got mad at me about the thing I said before, and...the finger?
Joss: I'm sorry. So tired of you.
Marti: (Laughs) Seventh season. One more season. One more season.
Seth: Now, it is lucky for us that the town is so small.
Joss: And the cars have to drive so slowly.
Marti: Yeah, and they have all this time. Look at how long they have to get there. Doo doo doo.
Seth: But she wasn't in time.
Marti: Ah, but there's Riley!
Seth: Ah!
Joss: Riley getting it done.
Marti: This is one of the first hints we had that Riley may be more than just a muffin. *"Muffin"?*
Seth: Unbelievably tall. Look at how gigantic he is!
Joss: (Funny voice) "I will destroy you!"
Marti: And I think he plays the game with the ball and the baskets.
Seth: Oh, that's right. I remember at one point he pulls up in this brand new...just shy of a conversion van. Remember that van?
(General recognition and agreement)
Seth: I was like, "Why did you get a van?" And he was, "Wow, you know, for about the same money as one of those ridiculous suburbans, I could get this giant van, which has like, *I can't figure out what he's saying here* and all these things and I can carry my team in it."
Marti: Him and his team of girlfriends.
Seth: Did he? I don't know.
Joss: No...
Marti: No, no.
Joss: Don't listen...
Marti: He only had one girlfriend.
Seth: It just made me laugh because he was one of the only people I've ever met that I can rationalize being actually large enough to own a van.
Marti: You shouldn't get one of those cars on his SUV cause...
Joss: The thing was very, very large and black and strange.
Marti: ...not Marc, the...
(laughter)
Joss: No, the van.
Marti: Okay.
Joss: Dear me.
Seth: I think we're all just making with the comedy to try to avoid all the uncomfortableness.
Marti: The pain.
Joss: You know, you folks out there don't know what it's like to do DVD commentary. We've shot this thing three years ago. We all hate each other now. We have this forced camaraderie.
Marti: We haven't actually seen each other. You know, Joss and I have a restraining order.
Joss: We've been using a digital Alyson for the last two years. Nobody even knows about it, but she lives in France. It's a thing.
(All three talk at the same time here)
Joss: The inevitable *something I can't make out*
Seth: Is she casting a spell?
Marti: The magic. The magic.
{Willow is running off to do a spell. Oz is on the phone}
Seth: Who am I talking to? Am I trying to get tickets to the Pixies concert?
Joss: (As Oz) "Uh, a large pepperoni."
Marti: I'm so in pain.
Seth: This is it. (As Buffy walks in to confront Oz)
Joss: Ah, don't fuck with my friend. Not cool. (As Oz) "I always have cool people on my shirt!"
Marti: Who was he talking to?
Joss: He was calling Willow, I think. Didn't get no one. Think he was...
Seth: And then I try and explain it, and she says one of my favorite lines. "I think this would be a good time for your trademark stoicism."
Joss: Ah, yeah. Nicely remembered.
Seth: It was such a good line.
Joss: Yes.
Marti: I didn't write that.
Joss: Oh that's right, they're going out to hunt - she said they're gonna go hunt Veruca.
Marti: I actually think Joss - actually, I don't know. Maybe. I can't remember.
{Willow's doing a little spell}
Joss: Who wrote that?
Marti: I can't remember if it was you or me.
Seth: Your name was on the script.
Marti: It was you or me. This was mostly me. There were a few things. You said one of the smartest things ever later down the road. It was a writing lesson, but not yet.
Joss: What was it?
Marti: Later. When they actually have the talk right before Oz leaves, you added the little couplet where she just says, "Don't you love me anymore?" And it is the thing that kills people every time, and it, to me, it's exactly what's going on in the scene, but I wouldn't write it because I thought it was too...obvious, but it's what you would say.
Joss: Sometimes, you hit it on the nose.
Seth: She's just so open.
Marti: It's what you actually do say. And that whole vulnerability, I learned a lot from that, cause sometimes people say exactly what they're feeling. And sometimes if they do it right, it's the most painful thing ever.
Joss: Yeah. And then he said, "My whole life, I've never loved anyone else." Ah...
Marti: Yeah.
Joss: It's so beautiful.
Marti: (As Oz) "I still wanna sleep with the other girl, of course." And that's when the conversation kinda fell apart.
Seth: But she's dead now, and that would be immoral and illegal.
Joss: Oh, right, and then a little Initiative fun. Then she's gonna make you either only love her or do something to your hair.
Marti: I think she's trying to hurt them. I think she's planning on hurting them.
Joss: And then she can't do it!
Seth: Everything breaks.
Joss: She can't hurt you.
Marti: The first take we did of all those floaty things?
Joss: Oh, it was hilarious.
Marti: It was like out of Sesame Street or something.
Seth: And then, of course, the bad girl shows up just to rub it in.
Joss: The bad girl makes the decision to be the bad guy and actually kill Willow and take her out of the equation. And then, decides to talk for about 45 minutes.
Seth: Well, cause she's not a bad guy yet.
Joss: Actually, we cut a bunch of the talk.
Marti: We did.
Joss: There was a whole thing.
Marti: They were yakking.
Joss: I think we cut the line, "He's in you, he's thinking about me." Which I couldn't believe the network didn't force us to cut. But then we had to cut it for length.
Marti: Yeah.
Seth: No pun intended?
Marti: Not you.
Joss: For some reason, that came out different than I wanted it to.
Marti: (As Buffy foils the Initiative soldier) Yeah, we were still doing stuff like this. This "Who's that guy?" stuff.
Joss: Yeah. We hadn't introduced the Initiative.
Marti: I'm surprised she didn't actually wear something sexier to kill Willow in. You think she would have worn her, like, favorite bustier.
Joss: Well, she knows she's about to rip out of this, so...
Marti: Oh, that's true.
Joss: It's the Bruce Banner effect. "I'll take the purple pants, thanks."
Marti: I guess when you're a werewolf you go to TJ Max and stock up.
Joss: You pretty much do. Three days out of the month, you just wear something shitty.
Marti: Not you, though.
Seth: Who me?
Marti: Oz is still wearing something cool.
Seth: I'm always well-dressed. We had excellent wardrobe people on the show.
Joss: You usually were cogent enough to take your shit off before you turned.
Seth: That's true.
Joss: But see, after Willow falls, she went and talked for a long time to Willow while Willow was inexplicably still on the ground.
Marti: She apparently shared her recipe for oatmeal scotchies (?), which I thought was...
Joss: Oh, I like this. (About the werewolf effects)
Seth: (Laughs) Oh, yeah. Got a little bit of Lincoln going on.
Joss: Don't go to the theater, President Lincoln. It's more like a kinda *something I can't make out* kinda thing.
Marti: This is not good.
Seth: That stuff was just so tough to do because it becomes really technical.
Joss: Yeah, the halfway-through stuff, too.
Seth: I look a little like Wes Borland from Limp Bizkit.
Marti: Or X-Men...
Seth: Yeah, Wolverine.
Joss: Oh, yeah yeah. Logan! But comic book-Wolverine more than movie-Wolverine. And there they go.
{Oz and Veruca are fully transformed and fighting}
Marti: Now they look like dust mops.
Joss: Now we're back to...
Marti: Cleaning Buffy could have used you guys.
Joss: We had a theme! We had a theme going, and that was "shiny floors".
Marti: At all costs.
Seth: You know, we all played tough, but nobody really got hurt.
Marti: Why do wolves have such long hair? They don't really. Right?
{Oz kills Veruca}
Seth: (As Oz) "I'm totally killing you."
Joss: We had to make sure it was clear. She was dead. That's why we added that shot in.
Seth: But I'm not awake enough to not kill her.
Joss: Yeah, that's the thing.
Seth: That's the thing.
Joss: This is Werewolf of London. "You love me", but he's a werewolf and so it doesn't matter.
Seth: What was nice was you make that distinction. That it's him.
Joss: And then Buffy just pats your butt and you fall.
Marti: Well, and that's why Oz has to leave, ultimately, too.
Joss: Yeah.
Marti: Cause he can't control it.
Joss: As the wolf, he's still gonna do the wrong thing. Imagine him as a giant penis.
(Massive laughter)
Joss: He is the male id.
Marti: Initially, that was what we had in the draft was a giant penis...
Joss: Yeah, and the network said, "Could you metaphor that up a little bit?" So we went with werewolf.
Seth: And she makes that realization that even though -
Joss: - it's Oz -
Seth: - that he would kill her.
Joss: Yeah.
Seth: It doesn't make it any better.
Joss: Even though he killed for her. He sorta made that decision when he was still, you know, big sideburns Wolverine.
Marti: By the way, all these establishing shots, usually mean that the show is running short.
{Buffy and Giles talking}
Joss: Yes. That means we didn't have enough footage and - also, this one we had to, then take her to -
Seth: Is that a bong on the table?
Joss: There's a lot about Giles we don't like to say. But um - cool stereo! Also, no pants. Um, this is a whole conversation about the Initiative, too. Like that was why we did all those establishing shots, too, because we went to a completely different place, and mood-wise it was horribly wrong. Like they come to the subject of Willow and Oz, but they really should only have been talking about it, so...you know, so we needed the mood transition.
Marti: Right.
(Pause)
Seth: I don't know what to talk about here.
Marti: Neither do I. That's cause the scene really...
Joss: Well, they start talking about - he starts talking about they keep seeing these Initiative guys and they have these ski-masks on but they're in broad daylight walking around in front of everybody because we had the crappiest secret government agency in the history of television, and we did it. We didn't have the money to make them better.
Marti: We did not have the money. Giles is really a natty decorator.
Joss: Giles has got it going on.
{Final good-bye between Willow and Oz}
Marti: Oh. This is the scene.
Joss: You know, David Grossman, really great director. One of the best.
Marti: That's why he's doing movies now.
Joss: Bastard. Never trusted him.
Marti: She looks so sweet here and clean.
Joss: He's so leaving.
Seth: And I'm dreamin' of the forest.
Joss: Yeah. You're headed to Tibet.
Marti: This was a case of great wardrobe, too, cause she looks so sweet and so naked.
Seth: This was one of the hardest things to do for so many reasons. The first of which because there was just so much emotion underneath everything that we're doing.
Joss: Didn't we shoot this last?
Seth: Yeah, which was...
Joss: And you were leaving in like a day.
Seth: We were really grateful for that. But, also, Alyson started really going there in the rehearsals, and we had to just beat-for-beat it to get the blocking cause when we actually started doing it, it was just so intense. And the thing is, the second I see that look in her face, it's so upsetting.
Joss: Yeah. I remember being on set and watching you feed off of that and it's just...
Marti: Joss and I in tears behind the monitors...snivelling.
Joss: Oh, we were constantly crying.
Seth: It's also because of who this character is. He's not an emotional guy, and because he really feels like this is the right thing to do, as much as it hurts, as heart-breaking as it is, he doesn't want to show her, cause he wants it to be okay for her when he's gone.
Joss: Yeah. But you can't -
Marti: She asks the question. The killer question.
Joss: Yeah.
Marti: "Does he love me?"
Group: Aww...
Marti: That's you, that's you, man.
Joss: "My whole life, I've never loved anyone else."
Marti: Ah...
Joss: Then we let the tears go.
Marti: Yeah.
Joss: We held them off till after the line.
Marti: Although we have takes where she's just bawling through the whole thing.
Seth: It's like you don't wanna touch..
Joss: The whole thing is just too intense.
(They start giggling)
Joss: We're like internet fan commentary. "I really like this episode."
Marti: This is so great. We are amazing.
Joss: Saddest. Episode. Ever.
Seth: (Very strange voice) And then when he kisses her on the forehead, it's just kinda conciliatory thing, like I'll always be with you here. Like E.T. leaving Elliot. I'll always be in your heart, sweet Willow.
Marti: (As Oz) "And I'm leaving the finger."
Joss: We were like, just hold on Willow crying for as long as possible. (Oz is walking to his van) And we had a song going here. What was it?
Marti: Uh...something about a ship or something.
Seth: Little Love in Your Heart?
Joss: I think it was polka. It was a big polka number going.
Seth: And how gorgeous does California look right there?
Marti: I was just gonna say, the weather is like that here all the time.
Joss: Yeah, the weather outside is frightful.
Marti: I know, we are such geeks when we watch the show, we're like, "Ah, I remember this."
Joss: I know, we're supposed to be giving them insights, and we're just like, "This was so sad. Remember this?" And then the whole thing where he doesn't do it. He doesn't start the car. We go back to her to play the idea that maybe he's not gonna leave. Because we wanna make the audience feel worse. They don't feel bad enough. So he looks back. "Maybe he'll come back." Maybe we should have panned to the door. We should have panned to the door. And then...
Marti: Oz, don't go! Don't go, Oz!
Joss: But we gotta make Willow gay! We're making her gay! I'm just sayin'. Who's fault is it? Van's leaving; she's gayin'.
(Laughter)
{End credits}
Marti: Well, I think we've really added a lot.
Joss: Now you guys know more than you ever wanted to. Yay us for our commentary. (Clapping)
Seth: Good episode.
Joss: We promise to never do it again. It is a beautiful ep. It's a beautiful ep, man. Too bad we've been phoning it in for the last three years.
Marti: I know.
Joss: Remember when it was cool?
Seth: What are you talking about? What about the musical?
Joss: Uh, I phoned it in.
Seth: Bullshit.
Joss: Oh, yeah. I just had those songs...coincidentally, they happened.
Seth: They just so happened to come out.
Joss: I had them in my trunk.
Marti: He just kept the names from *something. Fobo and Nipsy?* and it worked out, that's all.
Seth: How much of this crew is the same crew?
Joss: A lot.
Seth: Really?
Joss: A lot.
Marti: Not anymore.
Joss: A lot of them. Some of them. Some of them may be working on Firefly now. That's not my fault.
Marti: Just because they wanted to go.
Group: Grrr. Arrgh.
Seth: That's one of my favorite ending things.
Joss: Yes.
Seth: Cause I get so sick of *something*. The only other...was the Steven J. *something* thing where he did the typewriter cause that always signified...
Marti: I think we're done. Maybe we should actually finish. The screen is black.
Joss: Maybe we should just keep talking for a while. See what comes on after this.
Marti: I think this is a metaphor for the void of our humanity.
Joss: It's dark and it's miserable, much like me.
This is my first transcription and, well, it was something of a bitch. There's a lot of people talking over each other, and some very muddled dialogue, and some stuff is just impossible to make out. I've cleaned it up as best I can, taking out the "yeahs", "ums", repetitive verbiage, etc. If you see anything that's not right, please let me know so I can fix it.
Transcriber commentary is in asterisks (*) in sections to clarify something or to note when I just could not decipher what was said.
General scene setting is in {}, however I also used regular parenthesis () to indicate if one of the commenters is, say, imitating a character on screen or making a funny voice or reacting to something a character is doing. Also, there's laughter pretty much throughout the commentary, but I note down when there's a significant pause for laughter.
And, enough. Here we go. Joss, Marti, and Seth Green.
Small disclaimer: Feel free to link to this. Pass it around. The only thing I own in it are my mistakes.
Joss: Hi, you're watching Buffy with the exciting audio commentary. I'm Joss Whedon, creator of Buffy, and with me, as ever, is...
Marti: Marti Noxon, executive producer and writer.
Joss: Writer of this episode.
Marti: Of this episode.
Seth: And Seth Green, returning alumni.
(Group laughter)
Seth: I played Oz.
Joss: Seth Green, distinguished alumni.
Seth: (As Buffy chases vamp onscreen) That's not me. And that's not me.
Joss: Alumnus.
Seth: Alumnus?
Joss: There's only one of you.
Seth: Oh right, that's true.
Joss: You'd be a group of Seths. That'd be alumni.
(Laughter)
{Buffy beating up on vamp}
Joss: Okay, we should comment. On the episode.
Marti: Stunt woman, stunt woman, stunt woman. Oh! Not stunt woman.
Seth: Check out those sneakers on Sarah. Does she have the braided topsy-tail?
Joss: Yeah.
Marti: She does. Yeah.
Seth: Nice.
Joss: Something we introduced. Also, fighting and then pausing to quip and then fighting again was something we introduced with this episode. That's not anything we'd worked at before.
Marti: It was my idea, actually. Joss sorta was like "I dunno" but then I was like "Look, it'll be fun".
Joss: We'll have quips.
Seth: It worked so well for James Bond.
Joss: You know, he does. He puns and I think we love him.
Marti: Yeah.
Seth: Oh, this is where she was practicing the stand-up comedy, though.
Joss: Right. She does a quip and he doesn't actually laugh, much like America didn't. Um...
Marti: She's sorta saying like "I give and I give and I give and people don't appreciate me". Much like it is here.
Joss: Yeah.
(Laughter)
Seth: So, Marti, how did you come up with the idea for this episode? (Softly) See what I did?
Joss: That was great. That was great.
Marti: Um, well, when I was thinking of the idea for the series in general, back in the days long before the show was even on the air, it was all my idea, I thought well ahead into season whatever-this-was, and I decided that stuff should happen.
(Some giggling and talking over of each other)
Seth: Well, I think we covered that.
{Spike's making his final, unchipped speech}
Joss: This is our inevitable bad guy teaser where Spike makes his pronouncement of doom and then actually just gets shocked and dragged off and we don't see him again for a long time cause that makes us laugh. We like to make fun of James whenever possible.
{Opening credits}
Joss: Cause he's a villain. Ooo, credits!
Seth: Oh, hey, did you see that one 12-inch Buffy toy comes with that book, a vampire book?
Joss: Yeah.
Seth: That's neat.
Marti: What?
Joss: There's a toy.
Marti: Really?
Joss: There's a thing.
Marti: So, you guys should all go out and get that now.
(Laughter)
Joss: (Funny voice) If you haven't purchased your 12-inch Buffy action figure, know that its action feature accessory's a vampire book. (Normal voice) We should just have subliminal - instead of commentary - (Funny voice) Buy Buffy products.
Marti: Oh my god, this was Straight Willow!
Seth: That was one of my favorites.
Marti: This was the beginning of her gayness cause of you.
Seth: That's one of my favorites -
Joss: Way to cause her gayness!
Seth: Which is the vampire Willow and she kinda just makes the little subtle sneaky "Hi" (Talking about a shot in the opening credits). So cute.
Marti: I mean, it's not a choice. I know people are born that way, but you were the trigger.
Joss: Yes, yes.
Seth: Really?
Marti: You were the trigger.
Joss: I hear you made a lot of women gay.
(Seth laughs)
Seth: I just left a trail of homosexuality in my path.
Marti: It's sorta the whole allure, actually.
Joss: And, you know, a lot of them didn't see it coming. Even older women...it's a thing.
{The group at the Bronze}
Seth: Do you guys still have the Bronze?
Joss: We still have the Bronze. It's been sort of destroyed and redecorated.
Marti: In a way that is imperceptible to television.
Joss: Yeah, I know. It's been redecorated, like, one of the chairs is mauve, and so we really shook it up. Nah, you can tell.
Marti: We didn't have a startling reaction to the redecoration of the Bronze. You can tell in certain - you can tell with, like, the wall of TVs and stuff. That's very cool.
Seth: You have a wall of TVs?
Joss: Yeah, there's a wall of TVs behind the stage that's very cool. There's some big bubbles and stuff and the furniture's different. It's kinda got that Japanese thing going.
Seth: I was not kidding with those sideburns.
Joss: No, you're cool, Seth, as Oz.
Seth: Those sideburns...
Joss: Time-traveling werewolf, here to solve crimes.
(Much laughter)
Joss: I'm just sorry the network didn't go with that.
Seth: Yeah, the whole spin-off notion.
Joss: They wanted the Angel spin-off and I said, "You're missing out!"
{Giles joins the group at the Bronze}
Marti: Oh that's right, this is fun-seeking Giles.
Joss: Oh right. Giles.
Marti: He's looking for some fun.
Joss: It was season 4 where Giles has no life.
(Marti laughs)
Joss: And he's forced to play guitar.
Marti: It's sort of "creepy hanging around for no reason" Giles.
Joss: You know, we've all known grown-ups like that. And...strung out on *damned if I can make this out*.
Marti: Usually, you don't let them sit with you. But in TV it's okay.
Joss: Yes. Well, he's not a stranger.
Marti: Yeah.
Seth: I think the characters on my shirt make some vague reference to vegetables. (Oz is wearing a shirt with Asian characters)
Joss: What are they?
Seth: It's some Japanese characters.
Joss: People are gonna be fascinated by these insights. I think they're gonna learn and grow.
(Mass laughter)
Joss: Learn and grow...Now, Veruca's gonna happen.
Seth: Oh, yeah, that's right.
Joss: Veruca...she came in episode 2 because we came in five minutes short so we added the scene of you seeing her for the first time.
Seth: Which was a brilliant forethought on your part.
Joss: That was key.
Marti: That was some good trivia there, Joss. Thanks for that.
Seth: Sneaking that in.
Joss: I've seen a lot of these episodes.
Marti: Really?
Joss: I watch Buffy a lot. It's no Charmed, but it's got a thing.
(laughter)
Joss: And then here's great Paige Moss being Veruca.
{Veruca's singing}
Seth: Paige Moss -
Joss: We said go sexy, but she went a different way.
Marti: Yeah. She decided to eat the microphone instead.
Seth: We actually worked together in Can't Hardly Wait. She played this sorority girl who's just dissing me in the funniest way, and this was such a different character for her.
Joss: And for you.
Seth: Yeah. It's nice. But we both got to play cool kids on Buffy.
Joss: It's like, "Finally!"
(Laughter)
Joss: (While Willow's looking sad) Oh, look what you've done! You can't hurt Alyson - I mean Willow! (While Willow's grabbing Oz's hand) Oh god.
Seth: She's touching a man!
Joss: Well, it's a thing. We went with it for a while, didn't take.
Seth: It's a phase.
Marti: But later she goes to the bathroom and she washes her hands.
(Seth laughs)
Joss: Naw, this is before you gayed her up.
(Much laughter)
Marti: Gaydorized her!
Joss: Before she was like "Let's gay!"
Seth: Her cup is actually filled with "Gay-torade".
Joss: I was very sad killing - oh, now I've given away the ending! Oh well. Uh, Paige. We were almost gonna cut to her scampering away or something.
Marti: We talked about it, yeah.
Joss: But it wouldn't have been mythic enough. You had to do her in.
Seth: Yeah.
{Oz and Willow in bed}
Joss: Bunch of sex. She was good. This is all sessy *I think he means "sexy", but he's saying it in a strange way*.
Marti: Yeah, look at all that flesh.
Seth: Yeah, that was one thing I said in the interview was this is the only show where I ever really got to be cool and the only show where I was ever naked this often.
Joss: And method. Naked all week.
Seth: Oh yeah.
Joss: It wasn't funny.
Seth: They give you a robe.
Joss: There's an arm thing going on later.
Seth: Yeah, it's actually -
Marti: They make him put some plastic on whenever he's near the craft service table, though, Joss. He had, like, little gloves.
Joss: That's good.
Seth: There were guards everywhere.
Joss: The plastic codpiece. But that's naughty. (Oz is groping Willow on screen)
Seth: Wow! That's so much more suggestive than I would have thought.
Marti: Yeah. Have you even watched the show lately?
Seth: Actually, I flipped to it and saw Spike and Buffy getting together, which blew my mind, first of all. And then secondly I thought how graphic that is.
Joss: Yeah, that was the sequence where I said "Au revoir, monsieur metaphor!"
Seth: All I could think was James and Sarah, I was trying to remember, "Did they get along?" And I thought, "Yeah, they got along."
Marti: Yeah.
Seth: You know, scenes like that are so different than normal getting along it's like, "Dude, are you okay with me?" Like Aly and I, I know it'll ruin it for a lot of fans, but we would laugh about all this stuff because we were so brother-sisterly.
Joss: Well, you guys knew each other forever, right?
Marti: Yeah, the incest thing is hot.
Seth: Yeah, we met when she was about 13 or 14.
Joss: Shh! Ix-nay on the incest-ay.
Marti: No, no. I didn't mean it.
Joss: Sorry, when did you meet her?
Seth: We met when we were both 14, and we've known each other for so long and this was just such a fun opportunity cause there's just a real safety.
Joss: It's really important. Chemistry is the weirdest alchemy that there is, and sometimes people just loathe each other but on screen...
Seth: It's hot.
Joss: It's hot in its wonderfulness. But you guys were so cute. It was a very comforting space. It was a beautiful relationship. It was transcendent. Not so much about the physical since she was gay and didn't know it.
Marti: Your gay sister, but other than that...it was sexy.
Joss: Oh, it was. Covering your massive tats.
Seth: Oh, I know. That's - you can sorta see it right there in the light.
Joss: A little bit.
Marti: What?
Joss: He's got the big ol' tats on his arms.
Marti: What does your tattoo say?
{Buffy leaving Walsh's class}
Seth: It says "I love vegetables". No, I have two different icons. Oh my gosh! There's Dan.
Joss: (Sees Buffy) There she is!
Seth: There's Asian Dan.
Joss: Asian Dan. Right, one of our regular extras. Our core group of extras who not only went to high school with our characters but all graduated and went with them to college. They were great.
Marti: Was Asian Dan ever the brunt of any particular joke or was he just always...
Joss: He was there.
Seth: He was always there.
Joss: He was next to me in the food line, with Parker, he was just obsessive.
Seth: We had just one group that you could always spot if you really paid any attention.
Marti: Oh, we had Buffy just got an A, remember?
Joss: Yeah, she made her jealous academically. It was a whole big deal. Cause, you know, there's a story going on and we care because we're all about the story-telling. Look at that shirt. It's weird. It looks like a painting.
Seth: (Buffy's wearing a kerchief on her head) Sarah's actually on her way, in this scene, to clean houses.
Joss: You know, we were going that way and they said, "What about vampires instead?"
Seth: As opposed to the whole "behind the scenes of the maid service".
Joss: If cool 70s werewolf Oz is busy solving crimes, shouldn't Buffy be cleaning? But they wanted to do a whole feminist thing. I'm not buying it, but...that's their deal.
{Veruca's eating lunch. Oz is about to join her}
Seth: Well, we don't show all the scenes where she's cleaning out my spaceship/time machine. Check out my hairdo!
Joss: Yeah, well, you know...
Marti: I like your hair!
Seth: I was dead-serious, dude. There was no joke about it.
Joss: No, it was good. It would change colors occasionally.
Seth: Yeah, which became just a fun - I like that there was the allowance for that to happen.
Joss: Well that's just him.
Marti: What's that on your t-shirt, Seth?
Seth: Is it *I have no clue what he says, and I have no clue who's on Oz's shirt*? And here's the "trying to find a purpose to be sitting here" because we both know that this is the bad thing but we're both trying to make it seem innocent.
Joss: This, actually, episode is enormously painful. When she's grabbing your hand in that club, I've been that guy. Grab my girlfriend because she clearly wants to be with that other person. So many times. It's only about the pain.
{Willow sees Veruca and Oz eating together}
Marti: And, yet, here's Willow trying to soldier on.
Joss: This just breaks my heart.
Marti: See? It's okay cause I'm here and we're all gonna talk together and it won't be awkward. But..
Joss: Except you're gonna make it more awkward and it's gonna suck.
Seth: Don't I just leave?
Joss: I've done this so many...I've been this - "Hey, I'm the third wheel" when I'm the boyfriend.
Seth: (As Willow joins Oz and Veruca) Hey, you guys know each other, right? I'm, uh, gonna go get my van *it sounds like he says "simonized", but that is nonsensical to me* or something.
Joss: I'm gonna go get my steering wheel taken from the right side of the van and put onto the left side of the van.
Seth: (Laughs) That's right!
Joss: I think that'll make it cooler, more American.
Seth: That's a bit of history is that in the first episode we ever shot where I was driving in the van, it was a right-side drive.
Joss: Episode 6, season 2. Halloween episode when you saw Willow in the hottie outfit.
Marti: It was, that's right.
Seth: I had to learn how to drive a stick with my left hand. Very awkward.
Marti: What?
Joss: We chose the van based on the exterior and nobody bothered to mention that the driver's side was all wrong and English and evil.
(Marti laughs)
Joss: You know, I mean...
Marti: They didn't tell you it was a foreign van?
Joss: No taxation without representation. I'm just putting that out there.
Marti: That's not good.
Seth: (As Oz leaves Willow and Veruca) So, I'll see you guys later. I love you, sweetie.
Joss: (As Oz) I don't wanna be touching the other one.
Seth: (As Oz) I'm gonna take this opportunity to flex.
(Pause to laugh)
Seth: Well, this is awkward. You know?
Marti: See, Veruca's all comfortable.
Joss: This is all, what she's really thinking is, "Why do I have these feelings for Veruca?" But we - nobody knew that cause we hadn't made it up yet. Oh, that's the birthday cake shirt. They actually make reference to the shirt looking like a birthday cake.
Seth: (Sympathetic) Oh...
Marti: Oh, that's why the shirt looks like a birthday cake.
Joss: Yeah...
Seth: And she's saying how she feels dorky compared to the super-cool chick.
Joss: And even to house-cleaning Buffy. With new House Cleaning Action.
Marti: She's kinda House Cleaning Commando Buffy. She's sorta in olive drab and you know...she cleans for America!
(Laughs)
Joss: If she doesn't clean those houses the Taliban has already won. *I think that's what he says, but I can barely make out the second part* Just saying.
(Pause as Willow talks to Buffy)
Joss: You know, I bet they're talking about something real important. Think we're gonna get in trouble?
Seth: I think we should note that we don't have the audio track to this episode. So we're really purely speculating.
Marti: She's telling her she's the greatest -
Joss: Oz loves you.
Marti: - and Oz loves you and all that bullshit you tell a friend when your boyfriend is about to cheat on her. Or a boyfriend's about to cheat on her.
Joss: What she should be saying is, "He wants Veruca. He wants to do the thing with Veruca that you do with your naughty parts and there's nothing you can do about it."
Marti: Clearly you're not satisfying him.
{Oz is going down to his cage}
Seth: This is the cage that I welded myself and here I am. (Oz takes off his shirt)
(General cheers of approval at shirtless!Oz)
Seth: I just did a bunch of push ups.
{werewolf!Oz breaks out of his cage}
Marti: And here's another possum - I mean - a werewolf.
Joss: No, no, no.
Seth: That's lean right there. *"Lean"? I think.*
Marti: That's a lean cage, by the way.
Seth: Yeah, I know. I'm a bad welder.
Marti: You should plan better.
Joss: Oh, I forgot about this where you go and scare Maggie.
Marti: Yeah. I'm just saying...
Seth: Now is it me who scares Maggie or is it Veruca?
Marti: It's the two of you. Don't you remember?
Joss: That's the whole point, right? This is the big reveal that we didn't know Veruca's a werewolf yet.
Seth: Oops.
Joss: And I keep spoiling things!
Seth: Dang it!
Joss: Why? Gosh, I hope people watch this without our sound first.
Seth: Here's an interesting piece of history, though. Lindsay Crouse played my mother in an after school special when I was 10.
Marti: Huh. And now you're going to eat her.
Seth: Isn't that funny? And now I'm going to eat her.
Marti: Circle of life.
Joss: And there she is!
Marti: And that's a girl wolf.
Joss: Veruca!Wolf.
Seth: You can tell because of the hairdo.
Joss: Yeah.
Marti: She's also wearing a thong but you can't see it.
Seth: Uh oh! (As Veruca and Oz go at each other)
Joss: War of the Gargantuas. If you have a little tiny Tokyo around you, it's just like War of the Gargantuas.
Seth: (As Maggie) "They've lost interest in me and they're more interesting (sic) in hurting one another."
Joss: Or are they?
Seth: Now this was an awkward scene to film. Mainly because it's daylight, outside, in a forest with our entire crew -
Joss: An actual forest.
Marti: You were all nekid.
Seth: And, yes, totally naked. And Paige's boyfriend came by to check up on her.
Joss: Oh yeah, he did.
Seth: And I had met him before, which didn't make it any less awkward.
Marti: Were you wearing saran wrap or...a sock?
Seth: I was wearing one of those what is commonly called a "dance belt", which is, basically, a boy-thong. It's a he-thong. And, no more comfortable. And this was very awkward.
Joss: But wicked sexy!
Seth: And I'm completely freaked out, and she is, of course, "That was awesome, dude!" Which I think is what she said, right?
Joss: Yeah.
Seth: It was awesome, dude.
Joss: And then I think she becomes gay.
Seth: Right.
Joss: The thing you do. And, of course, it's the big brow-furrowing scene. We had to get a stunt guy in cause you hadn't had to do that in the show yet.
Seth: No. Very limited exhibition of emotion. (As Oz as Veruca tries to make with the post-coital pillow-talk on screen) Could you stop touching me, please?
(Pause with laughter)
Seth: No, Joss. Stop touching me!
Joss: I'm sorry, it's just this episode and it's a thing. I miss you.
Seth: I miss you, too. (Sniffle)
Marti: I just wanna ask, does the dance belt inspire you to prance about?
Seth: You know, it did for a bit. Except there were so many sharp and jagged unexpecteds on the ground and I wasn't wearing anything on my feet so my dancing was severely hindered.
Joss: The jazz hands, they were sexy, but just sorta wrong for this scene. I don't know. It was a thing.
Seth: And she's telling me that this should be alright, and I'm like, "I really wish we could just forget about this..."
Joss: "I wish your boyfriend wasn't here."
Marti: "Staring at me..."
Seth: "Please don't tell my girlfriend, and listen, I'm gonna have to kill you if you talk about this."
{Veruca and Oz getting clothes from the laundromat.}
Seth: "Seriously did I bring any clothes here cause I don't know how I'm gonna get home? I've already been arrested four times for indecent exposure."
Marti: There's some nice framing here.
Joss: It's Grossman.
Marti: Oh, it's Grossman! Okay. That's why.
Joss: David Grossman.
Marti: Not a gross man, but...
Joss: No. David. Well, he is a gross man.
Seth: Oh, this is - it actually said in the script that I was wearing, like, a pull-over polo shirt with sweat pants.
Marti: Well, yeah, cause it's not yours.
Joss: To represent the non-Ozness of it.
Marti: She has little leaves stuck to her or are those real tattoos?
Seth: No, those are real tattoos.
Joss: Yeah.
Marti: Oh, okay.
Seth: That the make-up people were excited about.
Joss: Well, her tats made sense.
Seth: I suppose so.
Joss: And she's all unashamed and sassy and you're all, "No, I don't want any part of this."
Seth: I believe what I'm actually saying is (Deep voice) "This will never happen again. This did not happen."
Joss: (In a very bizarre voice, as Veruca) "I want you. Oz, don't you see, we're meant to be together?"
Seth: (Equally bizarre voice) "No, this will never happen!"
Joss: (Same) "I think it will! I think it will because I am evil." (Normal) See? I don't know why they hired her. You know... (Strange voice again, as Veruca) "I'm going to get out of here. And then I'm going to jump in the Mach 5 and find Speed Racer!"
Marti: Chim-Chim! Stop that!
Joss: I just - you know, they wanted a girl for the part, but I thought I could have been great.
(Pause)
Joss: See, you wanna do the wrong thing.
Seth: Yeah. Cause she's dirty and she's in your ear and she can draw with her toes.
Joss: Is that an anklet or a tattoo?
Seth: Tattoo.
Joss: It's all good. See? It's all good.
Seth: "No, this will never happen again. This was a mistake because I was a wolf and I'm bad at welding."
Joss: "We destroyed Tokyo. Doesn't that make you feel wrong?"
Seth: Oh, that's right. She's explaining about the wolf's inside you, you should let it out. Don't deny your nature.
Marti: This, by the way, you know, is a metaphor for you kids at home. The whole "wolf thing"...
Joss: Yeah, it's a metaphor for...exactly what they did.
Marti: Yeah.
Joss: Yeah.
Marti: But at least we were trying back then, Joss.
Joss: I know. I know.
Seth: Trying to do the right thing, trying to blow her off, tell her it was a mistake, we can move on with our lives. She's not buying it.
Joss: Buffy's gonna have sex with Spike in season 6. Is this any worse? Think about it. Think about it! (In reply to Veruca's "See you tonight.") Okay, I'll think about it.
Seth: (Trying to make out what Veruca said) "See you round." Something.
Joss: Or "See you tonight", yeah.
{Maggie telling Riley about the wolf attack}
Marti: You know that people are evil when they talk after someone leaves, you always know that they're really...
Joss: All the evil people do. People who are evil or feel very bad about what just happened.
Marti: Yeah. Or if they say things like "Ta ta."
Joss: Yeah. Or "Ciao".
Seth: Or TTFN.
Marti: Oh, that's, you know.
Seth: That's pure evil.
Joss: What the hell's TTFN?
Seth: It's an acronym for "ta ta for now".
Joss: I didn't know that because I'm not evil!
Seth: I've studied a lot.
Joss: And here's the Blucmeister.
Seth: The first thing I notice about Marc Blucas because I met him before we ever - I ever saw any of his work is just how tall he is.
Joss: Not a small man.
Seth: No. He actually bought this gigantic van.
{Willow and Oz scene, with Willow in leather pants.}
Joss: Ah, she's trying to be Veruca!
Marti: Oh, that's right. She's wearing the sexy outfit.
Joss: With the leather pants and the quirky rocker chick.
Marti: So sad...
Seth: And I'm wearing the queerest outfit possible. And here she's trying to seduce me.
Joss: I know, and you have the scratches on your back.
Seth: And I feel so...
Joss: Which is a metaphor for...having scratches on your back...
Seth: And is just feeling so guilty and wanting to make everything right with her and feeling so horrible and that only makes me feel more horrible and I've got a lot of work to do and I'm reading the paper.
Joss: And you can barely move because you're all scritchy-scratchy from the wolfy-love-making. Tokyo-destroying.
Seth: I was always inspired because Oz, you know externally didn't exhibit all that much, but his room was so telling. The room and the van.
Joss: Yes.
Seth: He's such a quirky collector.
Joss: You've always been a van actor. And a lot of people are method, but you're just, "Put me in a van and I'll say the lines, kay?"
Seth: If I got a disco ball, I'll know what kinda of guy I am.
Joss: Exactly.
Seth: Trying to reassure her, I'm just tired.
Marti: No, No!
Seth: (As Oz) "Please don't touch me where I'm injured. I'm really really injured back there."
Joss: She wants to seduce you because she thinks you want her to be all sassy and you can't do it cause you have the scratches. You know, this is really painful. What's up with that?
Marti: I don't know. I don't know. I thought that's what you were wanting me to go for. Were you looking for...?
Joss: I thought it would be a light, funny kinda send-off.
Seth: I clearly remember you saying to me. I was like, "So, what, are we were gonna have fireworks or something?", and you said, "No, no, no. I'm gonna pack the leading up episodes with as much dark pathos as possible cause I really want everybody to cry hard when you walk out the door."
Joss: Well, they did. People loved you. I don't get it but people were...oh...you're sitting right there. This is bad.
Seth: It was fun. It was a good and well-crafted relationship.
Joss: It was.
Seth: And this was a nice and it gave it the weight that it deserved.
Joss: I was talking about that with that guy and you have to go through what Willow's going through: Pain, pain, pain. If Oz is just gonna up and leave, it's gotta just be the worst thing imaginable.
Marti: And not to get serious or anything, but to me, the whole thing about being this age and being really, truly in love with someone can be so difficult cause it's also the time when a part of you wants to be free. And the wolf, to me, is the part that both men and women have that can destroy relationships even when people love each other. And there's something so, so much about the college experience of loving someone and fucking around on them. It's just the worst thing ever.
Seth: Well, I don't wanna gush about it, but my favorite thing about working on the show was just how well you guys handled every character cause no one was just a bad guy, even the people who were doing the horrible things, like Spike. Everybody had a reason. Everybody had their own emotional agenda that was no - it was undeniably valid. You could really understand everybody's point of view, and it made the audience unable to choose sides. And that was my favorite thing about this episode was that - even though Oz is the bad guy, doing the bad things and being the ill character, it's like you understand where he's coming from, and you can see why he thinks leaving is the right thing and how he feels, like he's protecting Willow in a way. And you can see the selfishness, but you can understand from everybody's point of view why things happen the way they do.
{Willow getting guy advice from Xander}
Joss: That's the whole point. The whole point of the series. It's like, nobody thinks they're a bad guy. Nobody thinks that they're not righteous. I've dealt with people who are truly villainous. Villainous. People who have done appalling things to other people, on purpose, and they think that they're righteous. Everybody is. Everybody does. And with these guys, it's like, not only that, it's way more interesting. I don't think of Oz as the bad guy in this. I think of him as the tragic hero in this. Although Willow is the one our hearts go out to just unrelentingly and unconditionally because Alyson just has those big-ass eyes and just can bring on the pain like no other actress in the world.
Seth: She's just so darn good at this. She's really, really good at making you understand exactly what she's feeling, whether it's elation or hurt.
Joss: And also, the audience is gonna go through what she's going through in the sense that we're the ones being left. Like, we're the ones - but at the same time, Oz is the one with the tragedy of, "It's not simple for me". He does - the things Paige tells him, the things Veruca tells him are true, to an extent.
Seth: So it's like does he stay and torture everybody else or does he go and try and get himself together?
Marti: And, I don't know how true this is, but it certainly seems like an ongoing conflict between men and women. That women, it's not always true, it depends on people, but the fact that men's sexuality needs to be expressed in a certain way and women's is not necessarily in that way. It's one of the most ancient conflicts, and I like that there was some way to show this where you could show sympathy for the person who is doing the leaving and doing the thing -
Joss: I even have sympathy for Veruca. She's a different kind of person. She knows. She wears it on her sleeve. She's a werewolf. He's a werewolf. She thinks, "This is what he needs." Not just, "Oh, I'm going to steal someone else's boyfriend." That's not what it's about. It's like, he's with the wrong girl. She really believes that. So even though she'd be the most sensible villain -
Marti: She draws with her feet.
Joss: Okay, so she draws with her feet, which is a villain-y thing to do. And she does actually try to kill Willow, so eventually she goes to the bad place, but, you know, somebody's gotta do something bad or it's...Seventh Heaven.
Marti: And can I say from a girl perspective, that you're just damn sexy in this episode. You're just hot.
Seth: (Laughs) You guys made me that way.
Joss: Can I say from a questioning male perspective that you're damn sexy in this episode.
{Buffy and Oz talking}
Marti: I mean, all that torture and stuff.
Joss: I remember we spent a long time trying to figure out - we broke the story, we had it down, but we were like, we don't know what the Buffy is. This was one of the very -
Seth: I love, love, love getting to do scenes with Sarah.
Joss: Oh, she's -
Seth: It was so rare that we got to do scenes just she and I. Cause it was always in a group.
Joss: Yeah.
Seth: Yeah, and she's such a pleasure to work with.
Joss: Yeah, but I remember when we broke it we were just like, "We've gotta figure out how Buffy's agenda completely relates to this one." This is the first time we went, you know what? We don't, actually. It's like, Buffy can be strong and interesting in the episode and save the day, but this one is about Oz and Willow, straight up, and let's deal with that. And this has to be a sad person montage musical number because those are the best kind.
Marti: I always kinda think of these episodes in a trilogy, almost. There's three episodes that deal with Oz's werewolfness and Willow and them.
Joss: So Phases, this, and New Moon Rising?
Marti: Yeah, Phases, this, and New Moon Rising. I always think of those three as being about the two of you with other things going on but -
Seth: Was New Moon Rising the coming back for me?
Marti: Yeah.
Joss: Yeah, you came back.
Seth: That was one of those things where I was just so happy when I read it because it was such a quick summation of all this thing, but I didn't feel like it cheated at all. Do you know what I mean?
Joss: It was another example of, we have an episode to fit a huge issue between two people who have gone through so much together, but we got very basic things. You could control your werewolfness except around the woman you loved. That said everything. That, like, was enough.
{Veruca joins Oz in his cage}
Joss: Now, this scene. Do you remember my note in this scene?
Seth: I...don't. What did you say?
Joss: I remember exactly cause you played it and it was, you were both about to turn into werewolves, the sun is setting, and you guys played it and it was interesting and it was sexy, but it was not quite what I was going for.
Seth: Oh, wait, I do, actually! You said - if I recall this correctly - you said, "I want you to act like you're just about to come on to acid. And you know that it's coming and you feel all that tension and anxiety, but it hasn't happened yet."
Joss: Mmm-hmm.
Seth: I think that was what you said.
Joss: "Peaking on mushrooms," is what I believe I said.
Marti: Not that any of us have ever experienced that.
Joss: Luckily we've all read the great mushroom series of children's books.
Marti: The acid test.
Seth: I read the Tom Wolfe stuff.
Joss: Yeah.
Seth: And I'm seen takes of *damned if I can figure this one out* so I'm familiar with that.
Marti: Acid, acid, acid.
Joss: I had a mushroom salad one time. So we've all been there in that sense, certainly not in the "we were in the 70s growing up" sense.
Seth: (About Paige Moss) She did such a great job in this, too.
Joss: Both of you. It is one of the sexiest scenes we ever shot. That feeling of, "This thing is rising in me".
Marti: This was just one of those episodes where a lot of good things came together, too. Cause the music they found that she sings is very sexy.
Seth: She was so good at lip-syncing.
Marti: I mean, the whole thing...
Joss: And then you did that.
Marti: And that was a big moment, too, because it implicated Oz. That was a big thing.
Joss: Yeah, but you made a decision.
Seth: I made all of the decisions in this. I was the one who called her. I was the one who invited her there. And I pulled her in for the kiss. It's all incredibly culpable.
Joss: Well, it's the classic male thing of, "I want you to get naked in front of me so I can prove that I'm not going to..."
Seth: Just testing yourself.
Joss: And then...
{The scene where Willow finds Veruca and Oz together}
Seth: This is the worst..
Marti: Ah...
Joss: And, of course, Alyson playing it for the comedy, as always.
Seth: Yeah, you know she always goes for the laughs.
Marti: She's such a jokester.
Joss: The cheap laugh.
Marti: She wanted to wear that kind of big red clown nose...
Joss: The clown nose...
Marti: And floppy shoes, and I said I think that's going too far with the comedy.
Joss: But that's her. That's her instinct.
Marti: And they're naked again!
Seth: Just the...yeah, where am I? Now watch me try and - the framing of it to get the pants on in time.
Joss: Yeah, that was an issue.
Seth: All the technical...
Marti: The great thing about this is -
Joss: Pretty great framing, though, cause you guys really do appear to be in the nude.
Seth: Yeah. Well, we all but were.
Joss: And then her just like, "Oh, I'll get up as slowly as I like." She's evil.
Seth: Just really rubbing it in.
Joss: Those are the same locks we had in my dorms in college.
Seth: Trying to -
Marti: Cause wolves can't remember numbers, so it's okay.
Seth: I'm just so busted.
Joss: Well, she just won't put on her clothes. "Don't touch me!" Even I can read that. (About Veruca's tattoo) The very important mystical symbols of the sun and a dog bone.
Marti: It just kills me. I can't even talk. I can't comment.
Joss: The first time Aly did her first crying scene, the entire crew tried to comfort her afterwards. She was like, "It's called acting." There we go! That's when you raise your voice! The famous "Oz finally yells" moment. Check out the muscles. *he actually pronounces it "mus-kels"*
Seth: All I'd been doing was working out.
Marti: By the time you read the script or before that?
Seth: I had a lot of downtime in between shots. I'd just go and do sit ups.
Joss: Any time one of our actors finds out they're having a love scene, they're like, "I'll be at the gym! Bye! Fax me the pages!"
Marti: Your hair was apparently working out, as well.
Seth: Oh gosh, my hair was exercising.
Joss: Your hair has body and muscle.
Seth: And a split end in it. That's weird.
Marti: Remember when Willow - when Aly had to show her abs in the Halloween episode? She went to a special school, I think. She went to Abs-R-Us for like -
Joss: She was unhappy about that. But, then she got better.
Marti: And her abs looked fantastic.
Joss: Then she was straight nude and we cut all that footage where she was just nude all the time.
Seth: It's on the DVD, though.
Joss: Yeah. The DVD extras. Be the first on your block to collect them all!
Marti: There's really nothing you can say here, by the way.
Joss: Yeah, why are you still talking? It's not gonna help!
Marti: Watching this, why are they still standing there? I think they had to have a conversation or something like that?
Seth: Because the bad guy always has to try to explain the justification for their ill deed.
Joss: Yeah. Well, it's also a rule on Buffy: If anybody ever has sex, the person that they - the reason they shouldn't be having sex will walk into the room.
Marti: At some point.
Joss: This is season 4. Season 3 was where he walked in on you and Xander. In fact, that's what you're talking about. "But you did it with Xander!" But she's -
Seth: But she's totally calling me on it, cause this was so premeditated.
Joss: Oh, yeah. Well, there was a lame-ass excuse, bro. You should just leave the series.
Marti: You know, but she and Xander did the kissy but they didn't do the wolfy-naked-scratchy thing.
Joss: Well, there was some finger - well, it's not a thing.
Marti: Shh! Hey!
Seth: Now here's one of those situations -
{Willow walking down the street, crying}
Joss: What?
Marti: Hey, you got mad at me about the thing I said before, and...the finger?
Joss: I'm sorry. So tired of you.
Marti: (Laughs) Seventh season. One more season. One more season.
Seth: Now, it is lucky for us that the town is so small.
Joss: And the cars have to drive so slowly.
Marti: Yeah, and they have all this time. Look at how long they have to get there. Doo doo doo.
Seth: But she wasn't in time.
Marti: Ah, but there's Riley!
Seth: Ah!
Joss: Riley getting it done.
Marti: This is one of the first hints we had that Riley may be more than just a muffin. *"Muffin"?*
Seth: Unbelievably tall. Look at how gigantic he is!
Joss: (Funny voice) "I will destroy you!"
Marti: And I think he plays the game with the ball and the baskets.
Seth: Oh, that's right. I remember at one point he pulls up in this brand new...just shy of a conversion van. Remember that van?
(General recognition and agreement)
Seth: I was like, "Why did you get a van?" And he was, "Wow, you know, for about the same money as one of those ridiculous suburbans, I could get this giant van, which has like, *I can't figure out what he's saying here* and all these things and I can carry my team in it."
Marti: Him and his team of girlfriends.
Seth: Did he? I don't know.
Joss: No...
Marti: No, no.
Joss: Don't listen...
Marti: He only had one girlfriend.
Seth: It just made me laugh because he was one of the only people I've ever met that I can rationalize being actually large enough to own a van.
Marti: You shouldn't get one of those cars on his SUV cause...
Joss: The thing was very, very large and black and strange.
Marti: ...not Marc, the...
(laughter)
Joss: No, the van.
Marti: Okay.
Joss: Dear me.
Seth: I think we're all just making with the comedy to try to avoid all the uncomfortableness.
Marti: The pain.
Joss: You know, you folks out there don't know what it's like to do DVD commentary. We've shot this thing three years ago. We all hate each other now. We have this forced camaraderie.
Marti: We haven't actually seen each other. You know, Joss and I have a restraining order.
Joss: We've been using a digital Alyson for the last two years. Nobody even knows about it, but she lives in France. It's a thing.
(All three talk at the same time here)
Joss: The inevitable *something I can't make out*
Seth: Is she casting a spell?
Marti: The magic. The magic.
{Willow is running off to do a spell. Oz is on the phone}
Seth: Who am I talking to? Am I trying to get tickets to the Pixies concert?
Joss: (As Oz) "Uh, a large pepperoni."
Marti: I'm so in pain.
Seth: This is it. (As Buffy walks in to confront Oz)
Joss: Ah, don't fuck with my friend. Not cool. (As Oz) "I always have cool people on my shirt!"
Marti: Who was he talking to?
Joss: He was calling Willow, I think. Didn't get no one. Think he was...
Seth: And then I try and explain it, and she says one of my favorite lines. "I think this would be a good time for your trademark stoicism."
Joss: Ah, yeah. Nicely remembered.
Seth: It was such a good line.
Joss: Yes.
Marti: I didn't write that.
Joss: Oh that's right, they're going out to hunt - she said they're gonna go hunt Veruca.
Marti: I actually think Joss - actually, I don't know. Maybe. I can't remember.
{Willow's doing a little spell}
Joss: Who wrote that?
Marti: I can't remember if it was you or me.
Seth: Your name was on the script.
Marti: It was you or me. This was mostly me. There were a few things. You said one of the smartest things ever later down the road. It was a writing lesson, but not yet.
Joss: What was it?
Marti: Later. When they actually have the talk right before Oz leaves, you added the little couplet where she just says, "Don't you love me anymore?" And it is the thing that kills people every time, and it, to me, it's exactly what's going on in the scene, but I wouldn't write it because I thought it was too...obvious, but it's what you would say.
Joss: Sometimes, you hit it on the nose.
Seth: She's just so open.
Marti: It's what you actually do say. And that whole vulnerability, I learned a lot from that, cause sometimes people say exactly what they're feeling. And sometimes if they do it right, it's the most painful thing ever.
Joss: Yeah. And then he said, "My whole life, I've never loved anyone else." Ah...
Marti: Yeah.
Joss: It's so beautiful.
Marti: (As Oz) "I still wanna sleep with the other girl, of course." And that's when the conversation kinda fell apart.
Seth: But she's dead now, and that would be immoral and illegal.
Joss: Oh, right, and then a little Initiative fun. Then she's gonna make you either only love her or do something to your hair.
Marti: I think she's trying to hurt them. I think she's planning on hurting them.
Joss: And then she can't do it!
Seth: Everything breaks.
Joss: She can't hurt you.
Marti: The first take we did of all those floaty things?
Joss: Oh, it was hilarious.
Marti: It was like out of Sesame Street or something.
Seth: And then, of course, the bad girl shows up just to rub it in.
Joss: The bad girl makes the decision to be the bad guy and actually kill Willow and take her out of the equation. And then, decides to talk for about 45 minutes.
Seth: Well, cause she's not a bad guy yet.
Joss: Actually, we cut a bunch of the talk.
Marti: We did.
Joss: There was a whole thing.
Marti: They were yakking.
Joss: I think we cut the line, "He's in you, he's thinking about me." Which I couldn't believe the network didn't force us to cut. But then we had to cut it for length.
Marti: Yeah.
Seth: No pun intended?
Marti: Not you.
Joss: For some reason, that came out different than I wanted it to.
Marti: (As Buffy foils the Initiative soldier) Yeah, we were still doing stuff like this. This "Who's that guy?" stuff.
Joss: Yeah. We hadn't introduced the Initiative.
Marti: I'm surprised she didn't actually wear something sexier to kill Willow in. You think she would have worn her, like, favorite bustier.
Joss: Well, she knows she's about to rip out of this, so...
Marti: Oh, that's true.
Joss: It's the Bruce Banner effect. "I'll take the purple pants, thanks."
Marti: I guess when you're a werewolf you go to TJ Max and stock up.
Joss: You pretty much do. Three days out of the month, you just wear something shitty.
Marti: Not you, though.
Seth: Who me?
Marti: Oz is still wearing something cool.
Seth: I'm always well-dressed. We had excellent wardrobe people on the show.
Joss: You usually were cogent enough to take your shit off before you turned.
Seth: That's true.
Joss: But see, after Willow falls, she went and talked for a long time to Willow while Willow was inexplicably still on the ground.
Marti: She apparently shared her recipe for oatmeal scotchies (?), which I thought was...
Joss: Oh, I like this. (About the werewolf effects)
Seth: (Laughs) Oh, yeah. Got a little bit of Lincoln going on.
Joss: Don't go to the theater, President Lincoln. It's more like a kinda *something I can't make out* kinda thing.
Marti: This is not good.
Seth: That stuff was just so tough to do because it becomes really technical.
Joss: Yeah, the halfway-through stuff, too.
Seth: I look a little like Wes Borland from Limp Bizkit.
Marti: Or X-Men...
Seth: Yeah, Wolverine.
Joss: Oh, yeah yeah. Logan! But comic book-Wolverine more than movie-Wolverine. And there they go.
{Oz and Veruca are fully transformed and fighting}
Marti: Now they look like dust mops.
Joss: Now we're back to...
Marti: Cleaning Buffy could have used you guys.
Joss: We had a theme! We had a theme going, and that was "shiny floors".
Marti: At all costs.
Seth: You know, we all played tough, but nobody really got hurt.
Marti: Why do wolves have such long hair? They don't really. Right?
{Oz kills Veruca}
Seth: (As Oz) "I'm totally killing you."
Joss: We had to make sure it was clear. She was dead. That's why we added that shot in.
Seth: But I'm not awake enough to not kill her.
Joss: Yeah, that's the thing.
Seth: That's the thing.
Joss: This is Werewolf of London. "You love me", but he's a werewolf and so it doesn't matter.
Seth: What was nice was you make that distinction. That it's him.
Joss: And then Buffy just pats your butt and you fall.
Marti: Well, and that's why Oz has to leave, ultimately, too.
Joss: Yeah.
Marti: Cause he can't control it.
Joss: As the wolf, he's still gonna do the wrong thing. Imagine him as a giant penis.
(Massive laughter)
Joss: He is the male id.
Marti: Initially, that was what we had in the draft was a giant penis...
Joss: Yeah, and the network said, "Could you metaphor that up a little bit?" So we went with werewolf.
Seth: And she makes that realization that even though -
Joss: - it's Oz -
Seth: - that he would kill her.
Joss: Yeah.
Seth: It doesn't make it any better.
Joss: Even though he killed for her. He sorta made that decision when he was still, you know, big sideburns Wolverine.
Marti: By the way, all these establishing shots, usually mean that the show is running short.
{Buffy and Giles talking}
Joss: Yes. That means we didn't have enough footage and - also, this one we had to, then take her to -
Seth: Is that a bong on the table?
Joss: There's a lot about Giles we don't like to say. But um - cool stereo! Also, no pants. Um, this is a whole conversation about the Initiative, too. Like that was why we did all those establishing shots, too, because we went to a completely different place, and mood-wise it was horribly wrong. Like they come to the subject of Willow and Oz, but they really should only have been talking about it, so...you know, so we needed the mood transition.
Marti: Right.
(Pause)
Seth: I don't know what to talk about here.
Marti: Neither do I. That's cause the scene really...
Joss: Well, they start talking about - he starts talking about they keep seeing these Initiative guys and they have these ski-masks on but they're in broad daylight walking around in front of everybody because we had the crappiest secret government agency in the history of television, and we did it. We didn't have the money to make them better.
Marti: We did not have the money. Giles is really a natty decorator.
Joss: Giles has got it going on.
{Final good-bye between Willow and Oz}
Marti: Oh. This is the scene.
Joss: You know, David Grossman, really great director. One of the best.
Marti: That's why he's doing movies now.
Joss: Bastard. Never trusted him.
Marti: She looks so sweet here and clean.
Joss: He's so leaving.
Seth: And I'm dreamin' of the forest.
Joss: Yeah. You're headed to Tibet.
Marti: This was a case of great wardrobe, too, cause she looks so sweet and so naked.
Seth: This was one of the hardest things to do for so many reasons. The first of which because there was just so much emotion underneath everything that we're doing.
Joss: Didn't we shoot this last?
Seth: Yeah, which was...
Joss: And you were leaving in like a day.
Seth: We were really grateful for that. But, also, Alyson started really going there in the rehearsals, and we had to just beat-for-beat it to get the blocking cause when we actually started doing it, it was just so intense. And the thing is, the second I see that look in her face, it's so upsetting.
Joss: Yeah. I remember being on set and watching you feed off of that and it's just...
Marti: Joss and I in tears behind the monitors...snivelling.
Joss: Oh, we were constantly crying.
Seth: It's also because of who this character is. He's not an emotional guy, and because he really feels like this is the right thing to do, as much as it hurts, as heart-breaking as it is, he doesn't want to show her, cause he wants it to be okay for her when he's gone.
Joss: Yeah. But you can't -
Marti: She asks the question. The killer question.
Joss: Yeah.
Marti: "Does he love me?"
Group: Aww...
Marti: That's you, that's you, man.
Joss: "My whole life, I've never loved anyone else."
Marti: Ah...
Joss: Then we let the tears go.
Marti: Yeah.
Joss: We held them off till after the line.
Marti: Although we have takes where she's just bawling through the whole thing.
Seth: It's like you don't wanna touch..
Joss: The whole thing is just too intense.
(They start giggling)
Joss: We're like internet fan commentary. "I really like this episode."
Marti: This is so great. We are amazing.
Joss: Saddest. Episode. Ever.
Seth: (Very strange voice) And then when he kisses her on the forehead, it's just kinda conciliatory thing, like I'll always be with you here. Like E.T. leaving Elliot. I'll always be in your heart, sweet Willow.
Marti: (As Oz) "And I'm leaving the finger."
Joss: We were like, just hold on Willow crying for as long as possible. (Oz is walking to his van) And we had a song going here. What was it?
Marti: Uh...something about a ship or something.
Seth: Little Love in Your Heart?
Joss: I think it was polka. It was a big polka number going.
Seth: And how gorgeous does California look right there?
Marti: I was just gonna say, the weather is like that here all the time.
Joss: Yeah, the weather outside is frightful.
Marti: I know, we are such geeks when we watch the show, we're like, "Ah, I remember this."
Joss: I know, we're supposed to be giving them insights, and we're just like, "This was so sad. Remember this?" And then the whole thing where he doesn't do it. He doesn't start the car. We go back to her to play the idea that maybe he's not gonna leave. Because we wanna make the audience feel worse. They don't feel bad enough. So he looks back. "Maybe he'll come back." Maybe we should have panned to the door. We should have panned to the door. And then...
Marti: Oz, don't go! Don't go, Oz!
Joss: But we gotta make Willow gay! We're making her gay! I'm just sayin'. Who's fault is it? Van's leaving; she's gayin'.
(Laughter)
{End credits}
Marti: Well, I think we've really added a lot.
Joss: Now you guys know more than you ever wanted to. Yay us for our commentary. (Clapping)
Seth: Good episode.
Joss: We promise to never do it again. It is a beautiful ep. It's a beautiful ep, man. Too bad we've been phoning it in for the last three years.
Marti: I know.
Joss: Remember when it was cool?
Seth: What are you talking about? What about the musical?
Joss: Uh, I phoned it in.
Seth: Bullshit.
Joss: Oh, yeah. I just had those songs...coincidentally, they happened.
Seth: They just so happened to come out.
Joss: I had them in my trunk.
Marti: He just kept the names from *something. Fobo and Nipsy?* and it worked out, that's all.
Seth: How much of this crew is the same crew?
Joss: A lot.
Seth: Really?
Joss: A lot.
Marti: Not anymore.
Joss: A lot of them. Some of them. Some of them may be working on Firefly now. That's not my fault.
Marti: Just because they wanted to go.
Group: Grrr. Arrgh.
Seth: That's one of my favorite ending things.
Joss: Yes.
Seth: Cause I get so sick of *something*. The only other...was the Steven J. *something* thing where he did the typewriter cause that always signified...
Marti: I think we're done. Maybe we should actually finish. The screen is black.
Joss: Maybe we should just keep talking for a while. See what comes on after this.
Marti: I think this is a metaphor for the void of our humanity.
Joss: It's dark and it's miserable, much like me.