my calendar says I was overdue for some tl;dr navel-gazing.

[furiosity]

So I was writing this thing about my favourite childhood books for scrtkpr, went off on a tangent, and started waxing poetic about slurs/offensive words and the defence of their use under the "free speech" umbrella. I'm actually not even sure any more how the tangent happened, because one moment, I was sitting there describing the plot and characters of «

Comments

[margi_lynn]

SUCH A GOOD RANT! :D

[furiosity]

Haha, thanks! XD I don't think it uses enough expletives or hyperbole to really be a rant, though. Hmmm. *considers revising* >.>

[scarletscarlet]

Awesomesauce. I do like it when you make me think about stuff (or when you write something this lengthy and I'm kinda nodding along all the way through :) ).

I worked at a place for a year where the word-of-choice was "retarded" ("that's retarded!" "he's retarded!" etc), and it really pissed me off that hearing it blurted out several times a day meant that it was coming up in my head as an available word before others, so it there was a) a split second delay while I looked for another one, and b) a worry that one day it'd get out past that filter. Plus, it sounded really fucking obnoxious, repetitive and boring as fuck.

I am trying to work around some other old habits as well - like describing stuff as "crazy/insane/etc" - largely because I can see that it could be distressing to someone, and my vocabulary is more than extensive enough to take the hit, but also in part because it's lazy speech. There are almost always words that are more applicable to a given situation.

[furiosity]

Yeah, I remember first encountering retarded as a "general" insult years ago and thinking that it was a fantastic word, very punchy; I'd had no idea how harmful it was and it took me some time to stop using it. Ditto with "lame" when used to describe anything but animals -- I wince every time I see/hear it, now, but I used to use it all the time.

I'm partial to using "crazy"/"insane" as modifiers to describe things that are awesome (like, that cake was insanely delicious, or you look crazy good in that outfit) but I'm not sure if that usage is okay.

[scarletscarlet]

Ack, that usage is of lame is still in my lexicon in the "say it, then cringe a bit" phase.

Re crazy-as-awesome - I don't know either! I'm sure I still use it that way, too - I'm just kinda trying to get away from figurative usage on that one in the interests of erring on the side of less-questionable.

[scrtkpr]

This is awesome! So many ideas here I'd like to respond to. I kept hoping I'd have time to sit down and write something more than this placeholder comment, but today hasn't been cooperating. Tomorrow may be kinder. I will be back! ;)

[furiosity]

♥♥♥

[ysis]

I love the way you always find the perfect way to explain yourself ♥ :)

I was wondering... Is there a way to express that somebody is, say, "stupid" (as in willfully ignorant, closeminded, etc) without risking to offend someone or, on the other hand, having to use all those words? Do terms like that, insulting enough but in no way *ist, exist? I mean "politically correct insults" or stuff. Words that are actually insults - with all the "meanness" and dislike insults imply - but at the same time such as it would be completely clear - regardless of context - that they would be aimed exclusively at the person one is referring to, and in no way connected to other people. I can't come up with any such word, is it me or is it that they just don't exist?

[furiosity]

♥

I think there are quite a number of words that are insulting without being *ist -- asshat, jerk, and variations come to mind (jerkface, jerkwad, jerk-off). The *ist words are just all that much more insulting, which is probably why so many people like using them. :\

[ysis]

Ooh yeah I hadn't thought of those. My english is baad :). But do they mean like... the same thing as "stupid" or "idiot"? Or more like "silly" or "dumb", or even "cruel" I don't know.
There are different insult terms, *ist and not *ist, in Italian as well. But the non-*ist ones usually indicate "evil" persons, not "stupid" ones. Hmm. Even now... I don't know if it's because English isn't my native language, but it feels much more natural to write "stupid" people, rather than "asshats". Would it actually be equivalent, even "stylistically"?

Maybe the reason *ist words are more insulting is because they are, or were (like "bastard"), *ist? Which of course would make it even more guilt-inducing to use them.

[furiosity]

No, they definitely don't mean the same thing as "stupid" and "idiot", you're right! Although they can with the right context (and words around them), but that's too much work. I think there are quite a number of non-*ist words that can be used to indicate general lack of awareness without being ableist -- dingbat, nincompoop, numpty (I'm actually not 100% sure on the origins of numpty, but I think it's something like "numbskull" which could probably be seen as ableist, but I don't think it is, because last time I checked, elevated cranial bone density was not a mental illness...). They're just not used very often and so they sound strange/archaic/foreign to people.

I think it's definitely the case that the more *ist an insult, the more likely someone is to use it if they're really going for the jugular, so I think you are right. Though I don't know that a lot of people who choose to use these words knowing how much they hurt actually feel any guilt for it...

[lap_otter]

This is only somewhat related to your actual post, but:

In the last year or two I have been thinking a lot about *ism, in ways that I hadn't thought about it before. I didn't know what privilege was, hadn't thought about never (or rarely) seeing minorities on TV, believed that I was above *isms and that I knew what all the *isms were.

In large part because of posts you've made (and other people, but I can't remember who or even who linked them), I've been challenged in my mindset and recognized that I am not perfect--nor a special snowflake, and thank you also for that term. I've done my best to examine my behaviors, word choice, and thought patterns, and found more *ism there than I am comfortable with. And in looking around me, even in my extremely accepting group, there is less diversity and more *ism than I thought.

Basically what I'm saying is, thank you for putting your thoughts into the world. You've given me uncomfortable things to think about, and it has made me more aware of myself and the world.

[furiosity]

Thanks for saying that ♥ I can't really say I'm glad because I know firsthand how uncomfortable it is to realise that things are not as they seem, and I don't particularly enjoy making people feel uncomfortable, even if it's ~for a good cause. It's difficult to find anyone to talk to IRL who is a) able to talk about these things without getting defensive and thinking they're being accused of *ism and b) genuinely interested in these issues. :\ So in a way being able to wax poetic about it here has been helpful to me, because there are more people in fandom who care about these things. And I'm obviously far from perfect or a special snowflake; there is so much *ist garbage in my head it's distressing.