Interview Preview: Firebrand Priest
[Note: I'm posting this with an LJ-cut for friends-only first, but later I'll be dropping the cut to allow this post to be searchable. Hopefully, by that time, this rather long post will have dropped off your main "Friends" pages.]
Here, finally, is the interview with Father Thomas Quinlan, who I was delighted to meet last month. Father Quinlan has been reprimanded on many occasions for unorthodox methods and unapologetic, visceral language. He speaks frankly about the body, sex and equality. He has upset the hierarchy and the more privileged patrons so much, they tried to have him committed. He offered to show me his "proof of sanity", reports by the doctors requested by the Church to examine Fr. Quinlan, reports which clearly demonstrate that he knows exactly what he's doing.
FK: How do you stand on the ordination of women?
Fr.Q: Well, first, you're looking at the issue backwards. What we should really be encouraging now is unordained thinking. But we'll get back to that. As far as equality goes, anyone who doesn't believe in the equality of men and women isn't a Christian. And, there are no priests in the Catholic church--only presbyters. You can find that in the new ordination rules or in the bible, where it makes it clear that every baptized person, every baptized person, male or female, becomes a priest, a prophet and a servant of God. In that sense, every baptized person is already ordained. There is no theological obstacle to ordaining women. It's just offensive to the orthodoxy.
FK: Could you compare how this was expressed in early Christianity to today?
Fr.Q: Jesus demonstrated equality with his companions, with his sermons and by his actions. Men and women both were full participants in the early church, equal. But the legacy of the Church was held back by two ideologies: many Jewish practices which reinforced the idea of women as unclean and the Roman ideas of the pater familias, where a hierarchy of importance and value was assigned for different family members, with, of course, the father at the top, followed by sons, followed by male slaves, and the women at the bottom. You have to remember, until the last century marriage wasn't about morality, it was all about property. Women were considered the property, and men were considered the owners. That has nothing to do with the vision of Christ.
FK: And what are your views about marriage and celibacy in the Church?
Fr.Q: What most of the public doesn't realize is that when we are ordained, we promise not to marry, but we are not actually required to promise celibacy. Mandatory celibacy is dead. Celibacy started out as a movement from a local council called by the emperor, the Council of Elvira in the north of Spain, in 305 A.D. The pagans they were trying to convert were rowdy, so they tried to instill a sense of purity by turning back to older teachings about purity from the Jewish faith, which said their priests had to fast and remain celibate for a period of time prior to their services. The Council of 305 thought they could top that, so they declared they would remain celibate indefinitely.
FK: What about the debates over allowing priests to marry?
Fr.Q: That isn't the real issue. We have thousands of married deacons, who are having to take on more roles formerly left to the priests, but this serves as a trick to simply forestall ordaining women in the first place.
FK: And Catholic attitudes about sex?
Fr.Q: Catholics are very sensual people. In Italy, they still bless the marriage bed. We believe people need to live full lives. I've told couples I've married that Catholics believe in going to mass, but we also believe in feasting, drinking, gambling and fucking. Sorry, if that offends you.
FK: It doesn't.
Fr.Q: Good, it's a good word, fuck. I like the way it sounds. I don't mind shocking people awake with my language. Shit, fuck, cock, cunt--just expressions about the body or bodily functions. Nothing disgusting about that at all, no reason to be squeamish. People should take a good look at the Easter service. The Easter candle is the biggest penis in the church. It has to be dipped three times into the font.
FK: The font, which is to say, vagina.
Fr.Q: Exactly. Sexuality is where you express the principle of individuation, when you are most yourself, when you are freely giving yourself to another. If you're not giving yourself in totality, then you are just having sex; it's not sexuality. And as far as homosexuality goes, that's just a natural expression of humanity. Catholic attitudes about sexuality had become more enlightened, but there was a retrogression under Pope John Paul II, who centralized the church and acted as its dictator. Have I told you there's no Pope yet?
FK: No, what do you mean?
Fr.Q: There is no Pope, only a Bishop of Rome. That Vicar of Christ title, is a more recent invention, another example of trying to centralize the power. Until 1350, the title was Vicar of Peter. No one can claim to be the Vicar of Christ.
FK: What about the ongoing theological debates over salvation?
Fr.Q: There is no such thing as salvation or redemption. That's based on a misunderstanding of the Genesis myth. Refer to chapters 1-7. There ain't no devil, either.
FK: So many judgments about women are based on misunderstandings of Genesis. I don't understand this, especially with the literalists. I mean there are two different creation stories in the first book! How do people expect others to take this literally rather than allegorically?
Fr.Q: Some people don't even want to ask that question, let alone try to answer it.
FK: What resources would you recommend to people who are trying to understand these theological debates as they are reflected in the Catholic Church?
Fr.Q: You may want to read What Jesus Meant by Garry Wills or The Stillborn God by Marc Lilla.
FK: What is your official status now with the church? I thought you were forced into retirement?
Fr.Q: More like semi-retirement, I'm not allowed to say mass on the weekends, but I do sometimes during the week. They're letting me do weddings and funerals again. I also do quite a few classes.
Indeed, Father Quinlan shows no signs of slowing down; he's full of an energy and enthusiasm which is nearly tangible. He doesn't hold back, he speaks very directly. When you're speaking with him, you get the sense he not only gives you the truth of his feelings and convictions, he gives it to you with both barrels. From his tiny bungalow beside the Church of the Ascension in Virginia Beach, he still works his wonders.
On May 11th, Mother's Day, he celebrated 50 years as a presbyter. During that time, he has had many objections regarding the political direction from the hierarchy, but chose to remain in the Church to work for change from within. He has his fair share of admirers and critics from many different faiths. And while he has friends from many religious backgrounds and respects them all as individuals, he never fails to tout the advantages of his own faith in the Bride of Christ. His consistent message seems to be one of equality and both the respect of and enjoyment of life's blessings. It certainly was a blessing for me to be able to spend the afternoon speaking with him.
Personally speaking, I've been studying comparative religion since my elementary years. I was reared as a Southern Baptist, had multiple/blended families of Protestants, Catholics, Jews, Agnostics, Atheists, Deists, Pagans, Panentheists, Scientists and Wiccans--and that's only the family I know about. My desire to conquer the cognitive dissonance going on in my own mind regarding so many apparently contradicting ideologies arose from the desire to understand and better appreciate my own family, my own neighborhood, my own community.
Regardless of whether ( Insert preferred divine name(s) here: ) really exists in a "commonly shared experience" kind of way, at the very least many religious traditions and cultural rituals are a way of connecting to and expressing that essential non-verbal self, the self rooted in our earliest pre-verbal experiences. The verbal self, the part of us that responds to the letter, is only one aspect of a greater self which also responds to scent, sound, touch, taste, movement and vision. This greater self exists with or without religion, and its expression is holy in the fullest meaning of the term, healing and whole.
Here, finally, is the interview with Father Thomas Quinlan, who I was delighted to meet last month. Father Quinlan has been reprimanded on many occasions for unorthodox methods and unapologetic, visceral language. He speaks frankly about the body, sex and equality. He has upset the hierarchy and the more privileged patrons so much, they tried to have him committed. He offered to show me his "proof of sanity", reports by the doctors requested by the Church to examine Fr. Quinlan, reports which clearly demonstrate that he knows exactly what he's doing.
FK: How do you stand on the ordination of women?
Fr.Q: Well, first, you're looking at the issue backwards. What we should really be encouraging now is unordained thinking. But we'll get back to that. As far as equality goes, anyone who doesn't believe in the equality of men and women isn't a Christian. And, there are no priests in the Catholic church--only presbyters. You can find that in the new ordination rules or in the bible, where it makes it clear that every baptized person, every baptized person, male or female, becomes a priest, a prophet and a servant of God. In that sense, every baptized person is already ordained. There is no theological obstacle to ordaining women. It's just offensive to the orthodoxy.
FK: Could you compare how this was expressed in early Christianity to today?
Fr.Q: Jesus demonstrated equality with his companions, with his sermons and by his actions. Men and women both were full participants in the early church, equal. But the legacy of the Church was held back by two ideologies: many Jewish practices which reinforced the idea of women as unclean and the Roman ideas of the pater familias, where a hierarchy of importance and value was assigned for different family members, with, of course, the father at the top, followed by sons, followed by male slaves, and the women at the bottom. You have to remember, until the last century marriage wasn't about morality, it was all about property. Women were considered the property, and men were considered the owners. That has nothing to do with the vision of Christ.
FK: And what are your views about marriage and celibacy in the Church?
Fr.Q: What most of the public doesn't realize is that when we are ordained, we promise not to marry, but we are not actually required to promise celibacy. Mandatory celibacy is dead. Celibacy started out as a movement from a local council called by the emperor, the Council of Elvira in the north of Spain, in 305 A.D. The pagans they were trying to convert were rowdy, so they tried to instill a sense of purity by turning back to older teachings about purity from the Jewish faith, which said their priests had to fast and remain celibate for a period of time prior to their services. The Council of 305 thought they could top that, so they declared they would remain celibate indefinitely.
FK: What about the debates over allowing priests to marry?
Fr.Q: That isn't the real issue. We have thousands of married deacons, who are having to take on more roles formerly left to the priests, but this serves as a trick to simply forestall ordaining women in the first place.
FK: And Catholic attitudes about sex?
Fr.Q: Catholics are very sensual people. In Italy, they still bless the marriage bed. We believe people need to live full lives. I've told couples I've married that Catholics believe in going to mass, but we also believe in feasting, drinking, gambling and fucking. Sorry, if that offends you.
FK: It doesn't.
Fr.Q: Good, it's a good word, fuck. I like the way it sounds. I don't mind shocking people awake with my language. Shit, fuck, cock, cunt--just expressions about the body or bodily functions. Nothing disgusting about that at all, no reason to be squeamish. People should take a good look at the Easter service. The Easter candle is the biggest penis in the church. It has to be dipped three times into the font.
FK: The font, which is to say, vagina.
Fr.Q: Exactly. Sexuality is where you express the principle of individuation, when you are most yourself, when you are freely giving yourself to another. If you're not giving yourself in totality, then you are just having sex; it's not sexuality. And as far as homosexuality goes, that's just a natural expression of humanity. Catholic attitudes about sexuality had become more enlightened, but there was a retrogression under Pope John Paul II, who centralized the church and acted as its dictator. Have I told you there's no Pope yet?
FK: No, what do you mean?
Fr.Q: There is no Pope, only a Bishop of Rome. That Vicar of Christ title, is a more recent invention, another example of trying to centralize the power. Until 1350, the title was Vicar of Peter. No one can claim to be the Vicar of Christ.
FK: What about the ongoing theological debates over salvation?
Fr.Q: There is no such thing as salvation or redemption. That's based on a misunderstanding of the Genesis myth. Refer to chapters 1-7. There ain't no devil, either.
FK: So many judgments about women are based on misunderstandings of Genesis. I don't understand this, especially with the literalists. I mean there are two different creation stories in the first book! How do people expect others to take this literally rather than allegorically?
Fr.Q: Some people don't even want to ask that question, let alone try to answer it.
FK: What resources would you recommend to people who are trying to understand these theological debates as they are reflected in the Catholic Church?
Fr.Q: You may want to read What Jesus Meant by Garry Wills or The Stillborn God by Marc Lilla.
FK: What is your official status now with the church? I thought you were forced into retirement?
Fr.Q: More like semi-retirement, I'm not allowed to say mass on the weekends, but I do sometimes during the week. They're letting me do weddings and funerals again. I also do quite a few classes.
Indeed, Father Quinlan shows no signs of slowing down; he's full of an energy and enthusiasm which is nearly tangible. He doesn't hold back, he speaks very directly. When you're speaking with him, you get the sense he not only gives you the truth of his feelings and convictions, he gives it to you with both barrels. From his tiny bungalow beside the Church of the Ascension in Virginia Beach, he still works his wonders.
On May 11th, Mother's Day, he celebrated 50 years as a presbyter. During that time, he has had many objections regarding the political direction from the hierarchy, but chose to remain in the Church to work for change from within. He has his fair share of admirers and critics from many different faiths. And while he has friends from many religious backgrounds and respects them all as individuals, he never fails to tout the advantages of his own faith in the Bride of Christ. His consistent message seems to be one of equality and both the respect of and enjoyment of life's blessings. It certainly was a blessing for me to be able to spend the afternoon speaking with him.
Personally speaking, I've been studying comparative religion since my elementary years. I was reared as a Southern Baptist, had multiple/blended families of Protestants, Catholics, Jews, Agnostics, Atheists, Deists, Pagans, Panentheists, Scientists and Wiccans--and that's only the family I know about. My desire to conquer the cognitive dissonance going on in my own mind regarding so many apparently contradicting ideologies arose from the desire to understand and better appreciate my own family, my own neighborhood, my own community.
Regardless of whether ( Insert preferred divine name(s) here: ) really exists in a "commonly shared experience" kind of way, at the very least many religious traditions and cultural rituals are a way of connecting to and expressing that essential non-verbal self, the self rooted in our earliest pre-verbal experiences. The verbal self, the part of us that responds to the letter, is only one aspect of a greater self which also responds to scent, sound, touch, taste, movement and vision. This greater self exists with or without religion, and its expression is holy in the fullest meaning of the term, healing and whole.