Chichester pair arrested over assisted death claim

[sammason]

When I discuss the Right to Die, the question of abuse comes up a lot. Does the person who dies make their own decision? Do they come under pressure from those who want their money, or who want them out of the way

Comments

[cariadwen]

Yes, I followed this in the news

[sammason]

That's such a terrible and sad story about your neighbour's dying.

[cariadwen]

The son didn't find out until the day before. His BiL told one of our neighbours, who told me, who told him. When he phoned his sister it had all been arranged, doctors, nurses and the ambulance. It was a terribly shabby way to treat both men the father and the son. But no one seemed to think to question the decision.

[sammason]

Why didn't the son speak out?

[dimity_blue]

I read about that on the BBC news site. I think part of the problem is that dementia affects the brain, so it's impossible to tell whether this is what the man himself wants. If someone of sound mind wants to go to Dignitas, then I think s/he should be allowed to do that. With this case, it's far murkier. Unless this man's already got a living will or has written instructions in the past of what to do in this situation, how can they prove it's *his* wish and not undue influence?

[sammason]

Indeed, there's a real problem about knowing what the person really wants. But I'll quote one of my relatives, a great success story in her business career. When asked by a newspaper what advice she'd give to new recruits to her industry, she said this

[kittenmommy]

If I'm in a state where you'd put a dog down, put me down.

I feel the same way.

My MIL is going to be 96 soon. She's deaf, legally blind, can't walk without assistance, and deep in dementia. She has no quality of life that I can discern... she sits in a chair and sleeps all day, except for when they get her up to feed her or use the bathroom.

That's not living, that's just existing.

[sammason]

Thank you for saying this. I'm so sorry to learn of your MiL's suffering. Is she still suffering? Sometimes, when dementia becomes severe, it looks like blessed oblivion

[kittenmommy]

Thank you for saying this. I'm so sorry to learn of your MiL's suffering. Is she still suffering? Sometimes, when dementia becomes severe, it looks like blessed oblivion.

Well, sometimes she says she wants to die. But then she says she doesn't want to die. And then she tells her caregivers that they should just die (and she says this stuff in Italian... I think dementia is eating her English).

and she told her sister she liked pictures of Robbie Williams' legs

For a second I thought you said "Robin Williams's legs" and I thought, wow. :p

But most of all, her eyes said, 'Let me out of here!'

That's awful. We'll never know for certain what her wishes were; we can only hope that she wasn't really that aware toward the end.

well if I hadn't been pro-choice about the Right to Die before that, I'd have become pro-choice after watching what happened to that lady.

I say the same thing about my mom's death from cancer.

*hugs*

[deborahw37]

The issue of capacity is a difficult one and , sadly, the law has to allow for the possibility of relatives making a choice which benefits them but may not be what the person wants at all

[sammason]

I'll ask my solicitor whether he can be called on as an independent advocate for me. His answer will probably be yes, esp as I'll offer to pay for his time, but I don't think it will ever be necessary. The small team I've appointed to be my Attorneys are people I'd trust with my life. Literally.

Thank you for telling the story of the man who changed his mind about cancer when it happened to him for real. I think that illness can let people find strength inside that we didn't know was there. My MS has already taken me well beyond the limits I believed I had, and I'm still enjoying my life.

Do you have a Living Will and Power of Attorney in place? If that question is too personal I hope you'll ignore it.

[deborahw37]

Not too personal at all; and the answer is no I don't. I haven't seen the need to do so and I have no way of knowing what I'd really want . I mean we could discuss it now and I could tell you what I *think* I'd want but I do a lot of work with people with very extensive disabilities, their lives have value and meaning . I do a lot of work with end of life care and I see how precious that time can be.

So, perhaps foolishly, at this stage a living will isn't on my radar. That may change but I'd want whoever was advocating for me to make darned sure that I hadn't changed my mind.

[fallconsmate]

i think that there should be a clause in a living will that says that if they get to be X incapacitated they have the right to say "enough is enough"...

but if you're that incapacitated you don't have the right to say "let me die" because you're too incapacitated! it's ridiculous.

[sammason]

Yes it's ridiculous.

I've met, and known people who've met, healthcare professionals who quietly provide a Right to Die (a morphine drip for a cancer patient in severe pain, with a button to press at will) or a Right to Kill (witholding feeds from a baby with severe birth defects.) No doctor dares to say that they're doing these things, because they'd be struck off from practising. Instead it's done secretly. I think secrecy is the worst possible scenario.

[fallconsmate]

mama and granny c were both nurses. so i REALLY get it, medical professionals have to follow that oath that says "first, do no harm". and it can be construed that killing somone is the ultimate harm...

or you can look at it like i do, that Thanatos (Death) is the ultimate physician, healing everything with His touch. when both james and fallcon died, i prayed for them to go swiftly, without pain. james had a heart attack at home, and died before the paramedics could get there (which is what he would have wanted) and once fallcon made the decision to die, he was gone in 3 days. and two of those were in coma.

it depends on the person, and on their frame of mind at the time of the illness/accident/whatever what should be done for someone whose body is at the beyond-repair point.

[sammason]

You know more about this than most people know.