RPGs Then and Now

[freeport_pirate]

I frequently see discussions in which people argue about whether MMOs, and specifically World of Warcraft, are causing a decline in the number of roleplayers. This argument, I think, is too narrow in focus. To understand what's going on now I think it's necessary to take a step back and review a bit of history

Comments

[wizardru]

One might hazard that the 'WoW is killing D&D' meme fails on the face that more people are playing WoW now than were playing D&D in toto in 2000-2004. Didn't WotC estimate that there were approximately 3 million active D&D players in 1999-2000? WoW has something like three times that amount, don't they?

The larger question of how to attract new gamers is a tough one that doesn't have an easy answer. WotC themselves have been tackling it for over 5 years, to little discernible effect. It's possible that the 80s market was lightning-in-a-bottle, with no chance or recovering that original market any more than Magic:the Gathering, Pokemon or Yu-Gi-Oh can for it's initial markets. It's not new or novel, anymore.Personally, I think accessibility is a major issue for RPGs. Not the amount of rules or their complexity, but their density. A game like Yu-gi-Oh appeals to boys as young as 5 or 6, even before they can read the cards....and there are LOTS of variants and effects. The problem with D&D is the density of the rules

[gryphart]

The point about the rules absolutely hits the nail on the head for why I don't play D&D, nor did I like D&D Online or NWN2, which were basically attempts to graft D&D's huge pile o' rules onto a computer game. I gave all three enough time to try them out, and found I didn't enjoy the structure.

(Then again, I would rather play Oblivion any day over Warcraft, because I prefer solo, non-MMO gaming, so I assume I'm a statistical anomaly.)

[freeport_pirate]

Yes, WotC estimated that there were millions of people playing D&D every month. The number of people actually spending money on D&D was way, way smaller though. So yes, not only are there a lot more people playing WoW, every one of them is paying to do so each month.

[eyebeams]

I think that ignoring the large communities that roleplay via chat and forum with no rules except for popular fiction canon is going to get traditional RPGs mugged. The fanfic/roleplay axis is something I think people ignore because it runs contrary to all of the received values of the hobby. The players don't need what game designers are selling and, contrary to the consensus of RPG fans, thrive on somebody else's story. A massive community driven entirely by metaplot instead of "story" or "gamist" rules is going to get steadfastly ignored by hardcore gamers even while they update their Harry Potterverse persona's fanfic forum entries.

[_grimtales_]

So where is the crossover point?
Neither community seems interested in the other but RPG communities are constantly mistaken for (and spammed by) Simmers, forum players and fan/slashfic communities.

I'm surprised an online-intended RPG hasn't specifically emerged to general acknowledgement yet, though I know there's been attempts. Play over forums and chat programs has its own unique problems that might be interesting to examine from a design point of view.

[eyebeams]

So where is the crossover point?
Neither community seems interested in the other but RPG communities are constantly mistaken for (and spammed by) Simmers, forum players and fan/slashfic communities.

No, there's plenty of crossover. What there *isn't* is crossover with tabletop RPG fan sites like RPG.Net. People also forget that many, many tabletop gamers have nothing to do with online tabletop RPG fandom. But if you investigate these communities, lots of them play D&D and (especially) WoD.

[_grimtales_]

My experience differs. Most of the forum and chat RPers (and Simmers) I run into don't even know about TTRPGs.

[_grimtales_]

I think we'll see more of a synthesis.

Tabletop GM skills are DESPERATELY needed in MMOs to help create constant and interesting content for the players and to provide new approaches to doing so. A toolkit approach as in VTM Redemption, Neverwinter Nights and Ryzom would help this as would any number of RPG innovations come up with in the last 30 years that have largely failed to manifest in computer games.

The trick is coming up with a way to pimp one's services to the computer companys in a non-egotistical and useful sounding manner.

[dhw]

The fundamental gating factor to traditional RPGs is the GM.

One of the great strengths of the Mind's Eye Theater LARP rules that White Wolf did (other than the simple elegance of the original system) was that it made it possible for a small group of GMs to run long running and large scale games (a ratio of one GM to 20+ players).

[_grimtales_]

But then that's largely collapsed in on itself compared to its height as well, for various reasons.

[heliograph]

Like model trains and R/C aircraft, tabletop RPGs are a niche hobby and are going to stay that way. How many kids are excited about either of my examples, unless their parents rope them into it?

I suspect that we'll go the way of model trains, too: mostly direct with a few shops in places where they're crazy-popular.

I've only recently (since Christmas) started playing D&D again (with two groups of kids from 7 to 10... both sets children of gamers, with their parents as DMs). I think the Basic box set is actually pretty good at introducing the game to new players and DMs, and D&D For Dummies is actually surprisingly good at doing what it promises. From what the first-time DM (mother of the kids) is saying, the new adventures (like Scourge of the Howling Horde) are very easy to run.

Her only complaint is that they should sell adventures with all the miniatures you need to play it, just like the Basic box. But IIRC, that's your vision of the future, yeah?

[freeport_pirate]

WotC has created some good bandaids, but they haven't fixed the fundamental problem: D&D is way more complicated than it should be.

Pulling the game and the minis closer together is certainly one way to go and I suspect we'll see more of that in the future.