Bewildered

[fpb]

One of the ways in which Americans, or at least Republicans, simply do not seem to live on the same planet as the rest of us, is shown by the fury with which the whole Republican party has attacked Joe Biden for saying that paying tax - sorry: for the rich to pay more tax - could be regarded as patriotic. The poor man has not said one thing - not

Comments

[asakiyume]

I've always felt extremely patriotic about paying taxes. I know people regard me as a freak, but I *like* to pay my fair share. I like to know that to the best of my ability, I'm supporting my country. I don't like all--and sometimes not even most--of my country's policies, but I WANT to contribute to the funding of schools, to the repair of vital infrastructure like bridges and highways, to social services such as Medicaid and Social Security, to all the research programs, arts programs, and overseas aid programs that the government supports, yes, even to the military too (though I'd prefer it if the percentage the military received was somewhat smaller). Paying my taxes is my way of saying I care about my fellow countrymen.

Government should represent our desire to come together and do, with the force of all of us working together, certain things that are much, much harder to do on a smaller scale.

[expectare]

you conceive of a patriot who would want his government to be feeble, penniless, incapable of performing its basic duties?...I do not know whether the McCain campaign has calculated correctly

Yes...Yes, I can. I don't know if it will have a major effect--I don't know if anything can save McCain--but certainly he will get some votes from it.

I guess it boils down to whether you think the government is a country's enemy or friend. The idea that a government is a country's worst enemy is culturally (if not practically) held among a certain segment of the United States--and I think America is the only country in the world that has such a substantial part of the population feel that way--a segment that "should" vote Republican but is disgusted with McCain. This gambit is aimed at them, and he probably will pick up a few of them by calling his opponent socialist.

Also, I'm confused by your use of "tax." America has taxes from at least three different entities, probably from more than six, and these entities all have different sub-taxes.

[fpb]

That is roughly as true as that the Civil War was about States' Rights. Let us see what the original signers complained of:

He has refused his Assent to Laws, the most wholesome and necessary for the public good

[cerebresque]

Leaving aside the historical comparison, I also would say that this is close to it. I would agree with the bare statement that paying taxes is indeed patriotic, in the sense of supporting the government's performance of its basic duties - the police, the courts, national defense, etc., etc

[fpb]

IN that case, you take part in the political process to denounce abuses and, if possible, drag abusers before the courts. You do not declare yourself independent of your own government for tax purposes (though for no others, since if the government declared the protection of police and courts withdrawn from you in reciprocation, you would indubitably scream blue murder). Since no government is ever going to do everything exactly as every citizen wishes it, to attack the duty to pay tax every time you disagree with what the government is doing is the same as to write yourself a blank permit not to pay tax any time you like. Citizenship is a serious business, and so is duty, but it surprises me that supposed conservatives should claim the right to redefine either in their own favour.

Even in Britain, you say?

[wemyss]

I advert you to the Turra Coo, and to any Conservative Association outwith metropolitan London.

Re: Even in Britain, you say?

[fpb]

NO TORY would dare say that to tax the rich is unpatriotic. They would be demolished by countering Labour and Liberal fire. You should realize this. It would resurrect every lingering suspicion of Tory motives that lurks in the breast of every non-Tory Briton.

Which is one reason I said nothing of the sort.

[wemyss]

Another reason being that that is not my view.

Everyone shd be reasonably taxed to maintain the proper purposes of government. No one, least of all the poor, ought to be taxed for anything else.

Even so, to measure patriotism by how enthusiastic one is at submitting to the exciseman is simply silly.

Re: Which is one reason I said nothing of the sort.

[fpb]

If you object to having your view distorted, don't distort that of others. I did not say that one has to pay tax enthusiastically, any more than one has to go to war enthusiastically or resist crime enthusiastically or denounce terrorism enthusiastically. These are things that cost and that should be treated wtih appropriate seriousness. I never said anything else and I suggest you do not try to make it sound as if I had.

[ashesofautumn]

I think it's because she's catering to two separate crowds at once with ridicule like that.

The first group is the wealthy, who just don't want to pay more taxes and give up more of their wealth. The other is the flag-waving "support the troops!" crowd who associate patriotism with displays like yellow ribbon magnets.

During the debate, I recall Palin saying something about putting the government back on the "side of the people" multiple times. Paying taxes to the government isn't patriotic because the government isn't on "our" side, the government has its own agenda that works contrary to the American people.

Personally I've never thought of paying taxes as patriotic, just as something that's a part of working. I don't begrudge the government for taxing me - just for often spending my tax dollars unwisely.

[fpb]

Thank you. Your connection of the idea of "putting the government on the side of the people" and the tax question is most interesting and came closer than anything that has been said here so far to explaining the nexus of ideas to me.

I don't know if you've seen this essay: http://fpb.livejournal.com/345158.html (with a little additional note here: http://fpb.livejournal.com/345365.html). I think I wrote it while you were away. It has a lot to say about different European and American notions of what citizenship means, including a little on taxation.

[ashesofautumn]

I think one aspect of the health care debate certainly ties into a mistrust of the government.

They are not on our side, if they raise taxes on us, they will take the money and do something that is not in our interests. etc.

Personally, I don't object to the idea of universal health coverage. However, my only observations of government health care in the US has been military health care, and perhaps that's made me cynical. The VA system... broken. Active duty care is not quite as bad, but still a mess. Some days it's easy to think that the government couldn't organize its way out of a paper bag, much less state by state health coverage for all Americans.

I do think we'll get there, eventually, though there will be resistance the whole way.

[fpb]

I did point out in the additional note that a nationwide health service in the USA would involve tremendous organizational problems.