More Dworkin

[fierceawakening]

I posted the other day about re-reading Dworkin, and I was just thinking that I want to say more about that. As that post mentions, what I chose to re-read was a few snippets available online from Intercourse. (Yes, I realize that re-reading excerpts is not the same as re-reading the book itself. Yes, I did read the whole book, about a year ago.

Comments

This is where my thoughts are more jumbled and less intelligent :[

[anonymous]

Being in Islam, coming from a Middle Eastern background, homosexual in orientation, cisgendered woman in identity, I only feel authority to talk to those in whose experience I share in some way and criticize them openly in how they collaborate with their oppressors - I do not believe people should only be called out to think about their actions or words when they are hurting someone's feelings, but when they are participating in any interaction with someone that holds more social power than oneself. I have my feelings on other people, people with radically different experiences than I have, but the best I can do is listen to them before I open my mouth because ... well, I frankly don't have authority to tell a black person how they are collaborating with a racist or imperialist system, or anything like that. My perspective ends at my body, my eyes, my mind. My mind exists within society, society does not exist within the mind, and I cannot will it away nor can I truly understand how it affects myself and others

[anonymous]

Orgasms ... are not very important to Dworkin or people like me in the long run. I do not mean on a personal level, but on a political one. I feel the sexual dynamics inherent within many fractions of kyriarchy and oppressive systems give lots of people orgasms, but if they are contributing to further the oppression of others (not ..orgasms, lulz, they are not oppressive of course, actions are), then how will blaming the system be any different ... ? Can you really just blame a system and be on with it? Changing a system seems like the only way to really stop this cycle, or getting rid of it, but then what replaces it? Surely, a perfectly egalitarian (I use this word loosely since I'm aware that you may see D/S sex acts as egalitarian since it is all about consent and equal power beneath the exchange in the eyes of many who practice it) system would be hard to achieve until you could eradicate EVERY system of power, not to mention that people would still protect it, either to keep their privileges and power or to keep their

[fierceawakening]

And now the thing is: why this political sense of "importance," and why should it matter, and why should I care about it? If "political importance" tells me that things that deeply matter to me derail, or are selfish, or are silly, or are unimportant... why bother to be "political" at all?That's the thing that always boggles me. One is expected to put aside one's life for "politics," on some theory that "politics" are grand and more important

[anonymous]

I don't feel attacked at all.

And now the thing is: why this political sense of "importance," and why should it matter, and why should I care about it? If "political importance" tells me that things that deeply matter to me derail, or are selfish, or are silly, or are unimportant... why bother to be "political" at all?It's a matter of priorities, and I don't mean that in a holier-than-thou way. It's also a matter of acknowledgment ... to me, it is important to acknowledge my privileges, what makes me selfish, and what comfort I have is at the expense of others or perhaps what luxuries I have are at the expense of others. No one (well, HERE at least) is asking you to think the same as I do. But what do I do with this philosophy, this ideology? Just keep to myself and always keep quiet? I don't want others to do that, so I don't see a problem in talking about these things with people. It can get out of hand, as everything can, but I self monitor enough to know when I've said something stupid (Usually!) or when I am being too

[fierceawakening]

Are you expected? I don't think any more people expect you to put aside your life than any more people expect me to put aside my desires to be devoted to their God, or to put aside my love of eating meat (in which i contribute to a very bad system indeed) to be a vegan. I don't mind if something is expected of me from individuals who have fringe philosophies and aren't in any real power, aside from some radicals that like to go too far (we've seen it with peta, radfem, etc). If they want to engage me, then they can. Sometimes, I even know they are right, and it makes me think about why I still engage in what I engage in. Surely there are other ways to be happy.Okay, let me try to explain, best I can, here

Shutting up now, I promise

[anonymous]

However, growing up with a very different look on archaic gender roles and sexuality, due to my culture, does give me a different lens, and I look at western sexuality as very different and not very liberating, just as your lens as a female Domme/Dom gives you a very different perspective than what was written from the book, or intended as an audience

Re: Shutting up now, I promise

[fierceawakening]

Getting rid of a system, however, to me does not equate getting rid of certain actions that have existed within a system. Does that make any sense?

Yeah, it totally does, and that's not something I have a problem with. It's just that I do see a fair amount of people asking and saying things like "BDSM wouldn't exist in Utopia," so I don't always feel confident that people are saying "how can we re-map this act here in a less worrisome way?"

I read Dworkin above as skating the line between "How can we make intercourse mean something else and be good for women?" and "Experiencing oneself as permeable is always going to be disempowering." I can't tell whether she meant the first and flubbed up and said the second, meant the first and I misread and see the second, or meant the second, or something else.

(I also think it's a bit weird that she speaks of being entered as if it's something that only happens to women and/or people with vaginas, but I think I already said that...)

Re: Shutting up now, I promise

[anonymous]

Yeah, it totally does, and that's not something I have a problem with. It's just that I do see a fair amount of people asking and saying things like "BDSM wouldn't exist in Utopia," so I don't always feel confident that people are saying "how can we re-map this act here in a less worrisome way?"I'm 100% confident that people do not always mean that when they ask that question. I usually do, just because I'm not one to assume I know what a world would be like without a certain kind of system, since that would involve changing history, historical connotations, intersecting kyriarchies, and could as easily be replaced with some different kind of oppression. Without patriarchy, would crimes against women (by men and women) still exist? Of course. Would they exist in certain ways that we're unfamiliar with? Probably, who knows. All I can do is theorize. Power differences exist within nature, and some people want to take the approach that we're intelligent enough to overcome them and not let them rule our lives

Re: Shutting up now, I promise

[fierceawakening]

Power differences exist within nature, and some people want to take the approach that we're intelligent enough to overcome them and not let them rule our lives.

I don't think you can completely destroy anything natural. I do think you (generic you) can minimize it (or heighten it, for that matter), change its social meaning, etc., but I don't think you can ever do away with natural things. I'm not sure you should, either, though I do think you should be ruthless in correcting the logic mistakes that many people make about them.