Transcript of Twitter conversation
This began with a tweet by hawkwing_lb and went on from there. I have posted a transcript here, as everyone involved, including those like me who were mostly reading instead of tweeting didn't want to see it vanish into the aether of Twitter's supposed archives. I have done some light editing and made sure there were workable links to a couple of pieces rose_lemberg shared. No typos have been corrected.
I don't know if everyone involved is on LiveJournal or not; I know kateelliott is.
I will remind anyone reading this that the tweets copied here are the property of the original posters, as are the opinions expressed therein. If you want to copy and repost them and weren't a participant in the original conversation, check in with them and make sure it's all right with them. Linking to this is not a problem; the intention was to make sure there was an easily accessible copy of the conversation available for the participants.
I have done very little to rearrange the original threading here; as a result, this has the effect of the verbal equivalent of a very long jazz jam session. People perform little duets and trios while others perform solos. If this troubles you too much too follow what was said, I'm sorry. You should have tried copying it and being sure you got all the bits and pieces! I'm still not sure I've managed that; if anyone has something I should have included please let me know.
Liz Bourke @hawkwing_lb
I'm beginning to think that writers of epic fantasy and SF should be required to learn about the anthropology of material culture...
Somhairle Kelly @Eithin
@hawkwing_lb YES.
Liz Bourke @hawkwing_lb
@Eithin I'm reading on anthropologies of space and place right now, which is giving me academic words for what I already sort of intuited.
Rose Lemberg @RoseLemberg
@hawkwing_lb YES. This is exactly what I was thinking as I was writing my book (lots of material culture anthro in it).
Somhairle Kelly @Eithin
@hawkwing_lb Ooh, shiny. Do a bibliography post sometime?
Liz Bourke @hawkwing_lb
@Eithin But it's odd how much the understanding of how materiality and space conditions experience/culture - or how little - shows up in SFF
Liz Bourke @hawkwing_lb
@Eithin I'm due to produce a biblio for my institution by the end of April anyway... :)
Alex D MacFarlane @foxvertebrae
@hawkwing_lb @Eithin This sounds amazingly interesting! Also: YES.
Somhairle Kelly @Eithin
@hawkwing_lb The exceptions show up really well in comparison - GGK springs to mind, also @amtuomala.
Somhairle Kelly @Eithin
@hawkwing_lb Shiny :)
Catherine Baker @richmondbridge
@Eithin @hawkwing_lb Definitely yes.
Somhairle Kelly @Eithin
@hawkwing_lb Most SFF is informed only by cargo-cult, Nth-generation-xerox history - no arch. or anthro. or classics at all.
Liz Bourke @hawkwing_lb
@RoseLemberg Materiality, spatiality, sensory exp, all things that affect both behaviour & culture. What's invisible to one? Odd to others!
Beth Bernobich @beth_bernobich
@hawkwing_lb @RoseLemberg Yes! Yes! Yes!
Liz Bourke @hawkwing_lb
@Eithin There're a handful. @matociquala among them. Monette. I might put Jon Courtenay Grimwood in this category maaaybe.
Jenny Thurman @jennygadget
@hawkwing_lb "beginning"? :p
Liz Bourke @hawkwing_lb
@Eithin I think perhaps maybe @beth_bernobich. @stillsostrange too. But it is not so common particularly in BFF.
Liz Bourke @hawkwing_lb
@Eithin More anthro & history to go with handwavium. Part of what made @MorganJLocke's UP AGAINST IT so good was sense of history/cultures.
Liz Bourke @hawkwing_lb
@foxvertebrae @Eithin Poke at me to write longer than Twitter about it next week, would you? ;)
Liz Bourke @hawkwing_lb
@beth_bernobich @RoseLemberg And yet. How often does this really show up in non-othering ways in the fictions of the genre? Less often..
Rose Lemberg @RoseLemberg
@hawkwing_lb @beth_bernobich yes, because you actually need to know what you're doing. It's really good to have 1) a background in anthro...
Rose Lemberg @RoseLemberg
@hawkwing_lb @beth_bernobich ....2) an understanding of marginalizations, 3) some knowledge of multiple cultures
Liz Bourke @hawkwing_lb
@RoseLemberg @beth_bernobich Those last two rule out most white USian men... #ungenerous #butperhapsaccurate
Rose Lemberg @RoseLemberg
@hawkwing_lb @beth_bernobich not necessarily, one can be e.g. queer and well-traveled. One of the most clueful people I know is my advisor
Liz Bourke @hawkwing_lb
@RoseLemberg @beth_bernobich But I'm also thinking of how space and practice inter-relate. Fantasy royalty doesn't seem to have the +
Rose Lemberg @RoseLemberg
@hawkwing_lb @beth_bernobich who is white yet extremely wise, compassionate, well-traveled (also depressive and often drunk?) it can be done
Rose Lemberg @RoseLemberg
@hawkwing_lb @beth_bernobich though better w-out excessive alcohol
Liz Bourke @hawkwing_lb
@RoseLemberg @beth_bernobich + social/spatial relations and practices that is constitutive of historical royalty, often.
Liz Bourke @hawkwing_lb
@RoseLemberg @beth_bernobich Likewise the spatiality of fantasy and SFnal cityscapes doesn't nec'y make sense as practices are portrayed.
Somhairle Kelly @Eithin
@hawkwing_lb @RoseLemberg @beth_bernobich So many cities without coasts, rivers or farming hinterlands.
Liz Bourke @hawkwing_lb
@RoseLemberg @beth_bernobich Certainly not saying all, by any means! Far from it, in fact. (Probably should have said "a majority"?)
Rose Lemberg @RoseLemberg
@hawkwing_lb @beth_bernobich a majority would be my feeling, certainly. most are not moved to learn
Liz Bourke @hawkwing_lb
@Eithin @RoseLemberg @beth_bernobich Also the social divisions of space within cities & households & how space is used or subverted by +
Liz Bourke @hawkwing_lb
@Eithin @RoseLemberg @beth_bernobich + different classes of people, depending on the meanings ascribed to space/movement/place.
Rose Lemberg @RoseLemberg
@hawkwing_lb @Eithin @beth_bernobich I find most american authors have only limited understanding of both poverty and wealth
Rose Lemberg @RoseLemberg
@hawkwing_lb @Eithin @beth_bernobich in fantasy-like contexts, not talking about the US.
Rose Lemberg @RoseLemberg
@hawkwing_lb @Eithin @beth_bernobich yes. I know about this because I experienced poverty by US standards for many years yet was not poor...
Rose Lemberg @RoseLemberg
@hawkwing_lb @Eithin @beth_bernobich but rather slightly less than average by then-USSR standards. Yet, my father, working class, lived in..
Rose Lemberg @RoseLemberg
@hawkwing_lb @Eithin @beth_bernobich horrendous poverty, which is undescribable to US people. (he was an orphan)
Liz Bourke @hawkwing_lb
@RoseLemberg @Eithin @beth_bernobich In short, the *definitions* of "little" and "wealth" and how they change depending on situation/place.
Rose Lemberg @RoseLemberg
@hawkwing_lb @Eithin @beth_bernobich another issue of mine is agriculture. Same crops everywhere, and no thought is invested in how ...
Liz Bourke @hawkwing_lb
@RoseLemberg @Eithin @beth_bernobich Can I get you to expand on that?
Rose Lemberg @RoseLemberg
@hawkwing_lb @Eithin @beth_bernobich ..soil and weather conditions affect food supply and how that affects culture
Rose Lemberg @RoseLemberg
@hawkwing_lb @Eithin @beth_bernobich yet another peeve of mine is trade. Few people seem to understand/use the importance of trade ecomonics
Liz Bourke @hawkwing_lb
@RoseLemberg @Eithin @beth_bernobich Anecdote: the 18th & 19th century Irish labouring classes were an average of 3cm taller than English.+
Liz Bourke @hawkwing_lb
@RoseLemberg @Eithin @beth_bernobich + English ate bread predominantly: Irish ate potatoes, which had more nutrient value. Culture & diet...
Rose Lemberg @RoseLemberg
@hawkwing_lb @Eithin @beth_bernobich understanding lack as a way of life. e.g. significance of singular material objects. Having only a few
Rose Lemberg @RoseLemberg
@hawkwing_lb @Eithin @beth_bernobich having foods that repeat. e.g. only one grain, only one protein. Making do with little. not suffering
Rose Lemberg @RoseLemberg
@hawkwing_lb @Eithin @beth_bernobich outdoor plumbing - i rarely see it
Rose Lemberg @RoseLemberg
@hawkwing_lb @Eithin @beth_bernobich space considerations (how many people to a room), multiple generations in a room. how people smell
Rose Lemberg @RoseLemberg
@hawkwing_lb @Eithin @beth_bernobich what it entails to have clean clothing. What kind of clothing can be had
Somhairle Kelly @Eithin
@RoseLemberg @hawkwing_lb @beth_bernobich How high you can build, how densely, where you grow food & keep animals.
Rose Lemberg @RoseLemberg
@hawkwing_lb @Eithin @beth_bernobich in short, the nitty-gritty of living while having very little
Rose Lemberg @RoseLemberg
@hawkwing_lb @Eithin @beth_bernobich what kinds of aspirations would ppl have depending on socioeconomic class. How soc. mobility would work
Liz Bourke @hawkwing_lb
@RoseLemberg @Eithin @beth_bernobich I agree. No one remembers that wealthy usually travelled with mattresses & linens pre modernity either.
Rose Lemberg @RoseLemberg
@hawkwing_lb @Eithin @beth_bernobich in short, the nitty-gritty of living while having very little
Rose Lemberg @RoseLemberg
@Eithin @hawkwing_lb @beth_bernobich yes. The building issue I address extensively in my book. Another impt issue: healing, medication.
Rose Lemberg @RoseLemberg
@Eithin @hawkwing_lb @beth_bernobich how that would be stratified by class. Education stratified by class and the ramifications of it.
Rose Lemberg @RoseLemberg
@Eithin @hawkwing_lb @beth_bernobich finally, which is kind of the theme of my book, how language is stratified by class, and...
Rose Lemberg @RoseLemberg
@Eithin @hawkwing_lb @beth_bernobich ...how sociolects affect available opportunities for advancement and placement.
Somhairle Kelly @Eithin
@RoseLemberg @hawkwing_lb @beth_bernobich Shiny. I look forward to reading it even more, now!
Rose Lemberg @RoseLemberg
@hawkwing_lb @Eithin @beth_bernobich exactly. If country A will have certain diet, people might be shorter/taller than people in country B
Liz Bourke @hawkwing_lb
@RoseLemberg @Eithin @beth_bernobich In short, the *definitions* of "little" and "wealth" and how they change depending on situation/place.
Somhairle Kelly @Eithin
@hawkwing_lb @RoseLemberg @beth_bernobich One OK shortcut for SFF writers: read Hilary Mantel & CJ Sansom instead of Tolkien & Eddings!
Liz Bourke@hawkwing_lb
@RoseLemberg @Eithin @beth_bernobich Not a shortcut. Recommend instead London Labour and the London Poor. :)
Somhairle Kelly @Eithin
@hawkwing_lb @RoseLemberg @beth_bernobich Also Liza Picard's series on Victoria's London, Dr Johnson's London, etc.
Liz Bourke @hawkwing_lb
@Eithin @RoseLemberg @beth_bernobich I think it's good to read the 18th century novels... but yeah. Also stuff on non-US modern cities.
Rose Lemberg @RoseLemberg
@hawkwing_lb @Eithin @beth_bernobich THANK YOU.
Rose Lemberg @RoseLemberg
@hawkwing_lb @Eithin @beth_bernobich London gets some works because we talk about class in British context but it is not the only place
Somhairle Kelly @Eithin
@hawkwing_lb @RoseLemberg @beth_bernobich And maps - etymology of place names. I see far too many US-style "Oak Grove" etc.
Liz Bourke @hawkwing_lb
@RoseLemberg @Eithin @beth_bernobich To be honest with you? I started figuring out how use of space differs by reading travel writers.
Liz Bourke @hawkwing_lb
@RoseLemberg @Eithin @beth_bernobich Well, just one. A longterm resident of the Yemen and translator from the Arabic, Tim Macintosh-Smith.
Somhairle Kelly @Eithin
@hawkwing_lb @RoseLemberg @beth_bernobich I got there through living in cities and working on Welsh hill farms at the same time.
Liz Bourke @hawkwing_lb
@RoseLemberg @Eithin @beth_bernobich (Which is also how I came read the medieval Arabs who I'd never have heard of without him.)
Liz Bourke @hawkwing_lb
@RoseLemberg @Eithin @beth_bernobich - On travel writers, I think sometimes one has to start with interpreters and move on to indigenous +
Rose Lemberg @RoseLemberg
@hawkwing_lb @Eithin @beth_bernobich medieval Arabic writers rock.
Liz Bourke @hawkwing_lb
@RoseLemberg @Eithin @beth_bernobich + because so much of what a native resident takes for granted as self-explanatory isn't to an outsider.
Rose Lemberg @RoseLemberg
@hawkwing_lb @Eithin @beth_bernobich one can read commentaries #myfavoritething
Liz Bourke @hawkwing_lb
@RoseLemberg @Eithin @beth_bernobich But, say, forex, the use of space in modern Brazil or modern Qatar or modern Turkey or wherever is +
Liz Bourke @hawkwing_lb
@RoseLemberg @Eithin @beth_bernobich + also socially constituted in different ways, and may offer us different windows to understanding +
Liz Bourke @hawkwing_lb
@RoseLemberg @Eithin @beth_bernobich + the social and constitution of societies removed from the observer in *time* as well as distance.
Liz Bourke @hawkwing_lb
@RoseLemberg @Eithin @beth_bernobich I may be phrasing myself poorly, but we can ask the same questions of the space we already live in +
Liz Bourke @hawkwing_lb
@RoseLemberg @Eithin @beth_bernobich + but b/c we're not alienated from it socially/culturally/spatially, we still take things for granted.
Rose Lemberg @RoseLemberg
@hawkwing_lb @Eithin @beth_bernobich one thing I want to say is, no novel does everything perfectly, esp. multicultural novel
Liz Bourke @hawkwing_lb
@RoseLemberg @Eithin @beth_bernobich One can! With historical works. Commentaries for modern works are harder to find. ;)
Rose Lemberg @RoseLemberg
@hawkwing_lb @Eithin @beth_bernobich but I want more work that is not faily and works with the wealth of intersectionality.
Liz Bourke @hawkwing_lb
@RoseLemberg @Eithin @beth_bernobich Yes. YES YES YES. (Read more anthropology, Certain Genre Writers!)
At this point, more people began to show up, starting with kateelliott commenting on hawkwing_lb's original post. SO here we are, back at that beginning point.
RESTART THREAD
Liz Bourke @hawkwing_lb
I'm beginning to think that writers of epic fantasy and SF should be required to learn about the anthropology of material culture...
Kate Elliott @KateElliottSFF
@hawkwing_lb obviously I would agree
Liz Bourke @hawkwing_lb
@KateElliottSFF Obviously, you already know much of this. :)
Kate Elliott @KateElliottSFF
@hawkwing_lb it can never be talked about enough because it is so ignored and overlooked and dismissed of rather invisible
Kate Elliott @KateElliottSFF
@hawkwing_lb Issues of material culture examined within sff are never seen as "innovative" the way, oh, other stuff is.
Kate Elliott @KateElliottSFF
@hawkwing_lb Love the way the convo is framing it analytically. I don't have those writing chops.
Liz Bourke @hawkwing_lb
@KateElliottSFF One does one's poor best. I'm just watching @RoseLemberg in a kind of intellectual awe, however. :)
Rose Lemberg @RoseLemberg
@hawkwing_lb @KateElliottSFF Kate, you are one of the few people on my list of writers who do this kind of thing.
Kate Elliott @KateElliottSFF
@hawkwing_lb @roselemberg Yes, I should have mentioned her as well -- distracted by soup (lunch). Now corrected.
Liz Bourke @hawkwing_lb
@KateElliottSFF *salutes* @RoseLemberg
Kate Elliott @KateElliottSFF
Really interesting stuff on @hawkwing_lb 's TL on material culture, social space, and sff.
Jenny Thurman @jennygadget
@KateElliottSFF Ther is always interesting stuff on @hawkwing_lb's TL :p
fidelio @fidelioscabinet
@jennygadget @kateelliottsff @hawkwing_lb Always!
Liz Bourke@hawkwing_lb
@fidelioscabinet @jennygadget @KateElliottSFF You all should be reading @RoseLemberg, who's the one making this conversation really work!
Kate Elliott @KateElliottSFF
For material culture & social spaces ALSO follow @roselemberg 's TL. Serious stuff, well analyzed.
[Brief and hilarious side discussion of Rose's son's dinner, which leads to:]
Rose Lemberg @RoseLemberg
@hawkwing_lb @fidelioscabinet @jennygadget @KateElliottSFF which reminds me, one of the class-dependent things is attitudes towards childrn
Rose Lemberg @RoseLemberg
@hawkwing_lb @fidelioscabinet @jennygadget @KateElliottSFF how many, at what age, how they are seen/received, genders
Liz Bourke @hawkwing_lb
@RoseLemberg Yes. And what's appropriate to do to/with them depends on socio-cultural stuff. @fidelioscabinet @jennygadget @KateElliottSFF
Liz Bourke @hawkwing_lb
@RoseLemberg @fidelioscabinet @jennygadget @KateElliottSFF From child labour to baby cages to public nursing to "helicopter" parenting.
Jenny Thurman @jennygadget
@RoseLemberg @hawkwing_lb @fidelioscabinet @kateelliottsff also it bothers me when children dont seem to exist- kids working or playing etc
Rose Lemberg @RoseLemberg
@hawkwing_lb @fidelioscabinet @jennygadget @KateElliottSFF don't forget extended families. I always, always write about grandmothers
Rose Lemberg @RoseLemberg
@hawkwing_lb @fidelioscabinet @jennygadget @KateElliottSFF American-centric writing focuses on the nuclear family. Not my experience elsewhr
Liz Bourke @hawkwing_lb
@RoseLemberg @fidelioscabinet @jennygadget @KateElliottSFF Kinship &social relations. They work differently depending on so many factors.
Kate Elliott @KateElliottSFF
@RoseLemberg @hawkwing_lb @fidelioscabinet @jennygadget And the nuclear family is rare historically as well.
Kate Elliott @KateElliottSFF
@RoseLemberg @hawkwing_lb @fidelioscabinet @jennygadget So much lack in fantasy of understanding of family & clan structures & alliances
Liz Bourke @hawkwing_lb
@RoseLemberg @fidelioscabinet @jennygadget @KateElliottSFF The idea of the nuclear family is a culturally constituted one. (Hate that idea.)
Liz Bourke @hawkwing_lb
@RoseLemberg @fidelioscabinet @jennygadget @KateElliottSFF (Since it's so often used as a cudgel against other modes of being-in-the-family)
Kate Elliott @KateElliottSFF
@hawkwing_lb @roselemberg @fidelioscabinet @jennygadget The specific USAian 50s + suburban nuclear family I would call an aberration.
Rose Lemberg @RoseLemberg
@hawkwing_lb @fidelioscabinet @jennygadget @KateElliottSFF part of nuclear family idea is spatial mobility and the idea of space.
Rose Lemberg @RoseLemberg
@hawkwing_lb @fidelioscabinet @jennygadget @KateElliottSFF growing up, I lived in 2 rooms (rooms, not bedrooms) with four generations
Liz Bourke @hawkwing_lb
@KateElliottSFF @RoseLemberg Historically, "family" or "household" may include servants, adult siblings, affines, so many other persons...
Rose Lemberg @RoseLemberg
@hawkwing_lb @fidelioscabinet @jennygadget @KateElliottSFF my great-grandfather of blessed memory entertained his old musician friends
Kate Elliott @KateElliottSFF
@RoseLemberg @hawkwing_lb @fidelioscabinet @jennygadget Levels of privacy. Understandings of privacy and "autonomy"
Rose Lemberg @RoseLemberg
@hawkwing_lb @fidelioscabinet @jennygadget @KateElliottSFF I slept with my grandmother and great-grandfather in 1 room. parents in another
Kate Elliott @KateElliottSFF
@hawkwing_lb @roselemberg Exactly. How and when people were/could be/wanted to be "alone" differs radically.
Rose Lemberg @RoseLemberg
@hawkwing_lb @fidelioscabinet @jennygadget @KateElliottSFF then parents+brother, and grandparents+me. it was the best! everybody was happy.
Rose Lemberg @RoseLemberg
@hawkwing_lb @fidelioscabinet @jennygadget @KateElliottSFF that without much extended family, most perished in the Holocaust
Liz Bourke @hawkwing_lb
@KateElliottSFF @RoseLemberg @fidelioscabinet @jennygadget Privacy in its modern incarnation is a relatively new development, I hazard.
Rose Lemberg @RoseLemberg
@hawkwing_lb @fidelioscabinet @jennygadget @KateElliottSFF but often my great-aunt stayed over, she played the trombone + grandpa the fiddle
Liz Bourke @hawkwing_lb
@KateElliottSFF @RoseLemberg @fidelioscabinet @jennygadget (Autonomy as *ideal* maybe less so, as achievable? Another thing entirely.)
Rose Lemberg @RoseLemberg
@hawkwing_lb @KateElliottSFF @fidelioscabinet @jennygadget I often find it difficult to explain how happymany people can be in 2 small rooms
Kate Elliott @KateElliottSFF
@hawkwing_lb @roselemberg @fidelioscabinet @jennygadget I would hazard that too.
Rose Lemberg @RoseLemberg
@hawkwing_lb @KateElliottSFF @fidelioscabinet @jennygadget it seemed palatial compared to previous: communal apt., shared kitchen, 1 room
Liz Bourke @hawkwing_lb
@RoseLemberg @KateElliottSFF @fidelioscabinet @jennygadget Think possibly most USians have very great attachment to "personal space."
Rose Lemberg @RoseLemberg
@KateElliottSFF @hawkwing_lb @fidelioscabinet @jennygadget privacy existed historically, but often not within the home
Liz Bourke @hawkwing_lb
@RoseLemberg @KateElliottSFF @fidelioscabinet @jennygadget Seems constitutive of sense of status and self, "personal space."
Rose Lemberg @RoseLemberg
@KateElliottSFF @hawkwing_lb @fidelioscabinet @jennygadget + I find ppl respect one another in small spaces - small motions, heads turn away
Rose Lemberg @RoseLemberg
@hawkwing_lb @KateElliottSFF @fidelioscabinet @jennygadget one does not need a lot. Space is significant to identity. (1)
Kate Elliott @KateElliottSFF
@hawkwing_lb @roselemberg @fidelioscabinet @jennygadget &what does "autonomy" even mean? A limited definition is not a universal definition.
Rose Lemberg @RoseLemberg
@hawkwing_lb @KateElliottSFF @fidelioscabinet @jennygadget but space does not have to be OWNED. (2)
Rose Lemberg @RoseLemberg
@hawkwing_lb @KateElliottSFF @fidelioscabinet @jennygadget I think it is the concept of ownership, and how much is owned, that is different.
Kate Elliott @KateElliottSFF
@RoseLemberg @hawkwing_lb @fidelioscabinet @jennygadget Exactly.
Rose Lemberg @RoseLemberg
@hawkwing_lb @KateElliottSFF @fidelioscabinet @jennygadget I tell my students to look for items immigrants brought. Always a few if poor
Liz Bourke @hawkwing_lb
@RoseLemberg @KateElliottSFF @fidelioscabinet @jennygadget Truth.
Kate Elliott @KateElliottSFF
@RoseLemberg @hawkwing_lb @fidelioscabinet @jennygadget Yes. Much agreed.
Rose Lemberg @RoseLemberg
@hawkwing_lb @KateElliottSFF @fidelioscabinet @jennygadget but something. e.g. Jewish immigrants - women often brought candlesticks.
Liz Bourke @hawkwing_lb
@KateElliottSFF @RoseLemberg @fidelioscabinet @jennygadget I can tell you how the ancient Greeks defined it... :D
Rose Lemberg @RoseLemberg
@KateElliottSFF @hawkwing_lb @fidelioscabinet @jennygadget not just philosophies of possession, but the very way to linguistically express..
Rose Lemberg @RoseLemberg
@KateElliottSFF @hawkwing_lb @fidelioscabinet @jennygadget ..possession varies cross-linguistically. English is different from many
Rose Lemberg @RoseLemberg
@KateElliottSFF @hawkwing_lb @fidelioscabinet @jennygadget I can go into the typology of possession expressions but it is not good short
Kate Elliott @KateElliottSFF
@RoseLemberg @hawkwing_lb @fidelioscabinet @jennygadget Yes. This. I wish more people would consider more how language directs choices +
Kate Elliott @KateElliottSFF
@RoseLemberg @hawkwing_lb @fidelioscabinet @jennygadget Also how much unexamined modern expectations of space, etc, inform so much fantasy
Rose Lemberg @RoseLemberg
@KateElliottSFF @hawkwing_lb @fidelioscabinet @jennygadget I would love to teach "linguistic typology for SFF writers" one day. :D
Kate Elliott @KateElliottSFF
@RoseLemberg @hawkwing_lb @fidelioscabinet @jennygadget Yes, that would be great.
Rose Lemberg @RoseLemberg
@KateElliottSFF @hawkwing_lb @fidelioscabinet @jennygadget hard to do. In the novel I just finished, sociolinguistics is the story's core
Liz Bourke @hawkwing_lb
@KateElliottSFF @RoseLemberg @fidelioscabinet @jennygadget That and architecture. Would like to see ARCHITECTURE FOR FANTASISTS one day.
Kate Elliott @KateElliottSFF
@RoseLemberg What are you doing with the novel? I mean, have you specific publication goals?
Rose Lemberg @RoseLemberg
@KateElliottSFF @hawkwing_lb @fidelioscabinet @jennygadget I struggled with conveying through English, even though I knew what I was doing
Rose Lemberg @RoseLemberg
@KateElliottSFF I would love to publish it in a mainstream press. I just finished revising. I am pro-published in short stories but...
Kate Elliott @KateElliottSFF
@hawkwing_lb @roselemberg @fidelioscabinet @jennygadget At Worldcon 2010 Russell Kirkpatrick did an excellent presentation on maps.
Rose Lemberg @RoseLemberg
@KateElliottSFF like writing novels more, so have not written many stories. This novel is the first I am marketing; have not started yet
Rose Lemberg @RoseLemberg
@KateElliottSFF am working on my query, trying to find out who would potentially rep such a work. It is complex. Actiony, but complex
Deirdre Murphy @Wyld_Dandelyon
@RoseLemberg @KateElliottSFF @hawkwing_lb @fidelioscabinet @jennygadget I wish for a way to express connected to but not owned by in English
Liz Bourke @hawkwing_lb
@KateElliottSFF @RoseLemberg @fidelioscabinet @jennygadget Modern, urban, middle class expectations. What I see, with many - tho' not all +
Rose Lemberg @RoseLemberg
@KateElliottSFF FWIW Shweta Narayan beta-read it and could tell you what she thought if you'd like.
Liz Bourke @hawkwing_lb
@KateElliottSFF @RoseLemberg @fidelioscabinet @jennygadget + nor even a large majority of US BFF writers is a lack of historical layering.
@hawkwing_lb @roselemberg @fidelioscabinet @jennygadget A whole set of subjects that would make an awesome weekend seminar (short version)
Rose Lemberg @RoseLemberg
@hawkwing_lb @fidelioscabinet @jennygadget @KateElliottSFF additional complication: a society can be class-stratified, but might contain (1)
Rose Lemberg @RoseLemberg
@hawkwing_lb @fidelioscabinet @jennygadget @KateElliottSFF ...a minority group, stratified in a different way
Rose Lemberg @RoseLemberg
@Wyld_Dandelyon @KateElliottSFF @hawkwing_lb @fidelioscabinet @jennygadget Yes! there is a way to do so in many languages. Coexisting with.
Liz Bourke @hawkwing_lb
@KateElliottSFF @RoseLemberg @fidelioscabinet @jennygadget There is no stratigraphy, or only very basic, both socially and materially.
Rose Lemberg @RoseLemberg
@Wyld_Dandelyon @KateElliottSFF @hawkwing_lb @fidelioscabinet @jennygadget esp. pertinent in sacred contexts, for sacred/significant objects
Rose Lemberg @RoseLemberg
@hawkwing_lb @KateElliottSFF @fidelioscabinet @jennygadget AAAH YES. That is also on my mind a lot. "Comfort", e.g. is a modern notion
Kate Elliott @KateElliottSFF
@RoseLemberg Uh. Could I read it (not as a beta reader)?
Liz Bourke @hawkwing_lb
@KateElliottSFF @RoseLemberg @fidelioscabinet @jennygadget Whereas society & historic space/materiality is almost always stratified.Layered.
Kate Elliott @KateElliottSFF
@RoseLemberg And I won't be insulted if you say no.
Kate Elliott @KateElliottSFF
@hawkwing_lb @roselemberg @fidelioscabinet @jennygadget I once explained to a young writer that a "queen" did not lounge about the castle +
Kate Elliott @KateElliottSFF
@hawkwing_lb @roselemberg @fidelioscabinet @jennygadget bemoaning that her only child was now grown up & she had nothing to do +
Liz Bourke @hawkwing_lb
@RoseLemberg @KateElliottSFF @fidelioscabinet @jennygadget Not sure it is *entirely* modern. But the expectation/hope of living without +
Rose Lemberg @RoseLemberg
@KateElliottSFF *blush* but... but you are one of my favorite authors! *blush* Yes. Of course! Thank you!!!
Deirdre Murphy @Wyld_Dandelyon
@RoseLemberg @KateElliottSFF @hawkwing_lb @fidelioscabinet @jennygadget "My spouse/friend" is so much more th coexisting, but NOT ownership!
Kate Elliott @KateElliottSFF
@hawkwing_lb @roselemberg @fidelioscabinet @jennygadget To his credit, the writer GOT IT. Rewrote the bk. The queen became a major character
Kate Elliott @KateElliottSFF
@hawkwing_lb @roselemberg @fidelioscabinet @jennygadget All I can do is keep saying YES.
Liz Bourke @hawkwing_lb
@RoseLemberg @KateElliottSFF @fidelioscabinet @jennygadget + a background radiation of discomfort/injury/pain, that's a distinctly modern +
Rose Lemberg @RoseLemberg
@hawkwing_lb @KateElliottSFF @fidelioscabinet @jennygadget Actually, this article gives a great summary http://www.apartmenttherapy.com/history-of-comfort-183661...
Liz Bourke @hawkwing_lb
@RoseLemberg @KateElliottSFF @fidelioscabinet @jennygadget + idea of a lived "normality" not present in agrarian or premodern societies.
Rose Lemberg @RoseLemberg
@hawkwing_lb @KateElliottSFF @fidelioscabinet @jennygadget Carolyn Purnell had some very good work lately, e.g. http://www.apartmenttherapy.com/color-chromophobia-and-colonialism-some-historical-thoughts-185710...
Rose Lemberg @RoseLemberg
@hawkwing_lb @KateElliottSFF @fidelioscabinet @jennygadget I hope she writes a book one day.
Rose Lemberg @RoseLemberg
@hawkwing_lb @KateElliottSFF @fidelioscabinet @jennygadget in Russian peasant homes, definitely cleanliness, function, heat, food.
Rose Lemberg @RoseLemberg
@hawkwing_lb @KateElliottSFF @fidelioscabinet @jennygadget function included where to sleep, where to host, where to weave.
Rose Lemberg @RoseLemberg
@hawkwing_lb @KateElliottSFF @fidelioscabinet @jennygadget in more affluent homes - display of wealth, social status, connections
Liz Bourke @hawkwing_lb
@RoseLemberg @KateElliottSFF @fidelioscabinet @jennygadget Ah. Comfort qua "comfort" as emergent property of middle/consumer class.
Liz Bourke @hawkwing_lb
@RoseLemberg @KateElliottSFF @fidelioscabinet @jennygadget Was thinking of existence of luxury and ease versus comfort qua comfort.
Kate Elliott @KateElliottSFF
@RoseLemberg @hawkwing_lb @fidelioscabinet @jennygadget So why isn't all this discussed more in the context of sff? I know the easy answer.
Somhairle Kelly @Eithin
@hawkwing_lb @RoseLemberg @KateElliottSFF @fidelioscabinet @jennygadget Related: The Old Turf Fire [NB: or here? Youtube and I have issues with my links]
Liz Bourke @hawkwing_lb
@KateElliottSFF @fidelioscabinet @jennygadget Because no one has invited @RoseLemberg to be academic GoH and give all the seminars yet?
Rose Lemberg @RoseLemberg
@KateElliottSFF @hawkwing_lb @fidelioscabinet @jennygadget btw I think we might need a transcript of this discussion :D
Rose Lemberg @RoseLemberg
@KateElliottSFF @hawkwing_lb @fidelioscabinet @jennygadget Kate, it is very hard to do cluefully, payoff currently small +
Rose Lemberg @RoseLemberg
@KateElliottSFF @hawkwing_lb @fidelioscabinet @jennygadget many people get defensive when issues are pointed out, unwilling to learn
Liz Bourke @hawkwing_lb
@Eithin @RoseLemberg @KateElliottSFF @fidelioscabinet @jennygadget There is nothing so awkward to clean as a hearth and the dust of smoke.
Rose Lemberg @RoseLemberg
@KateElliottSFF @hawkwing_lb @fidelioscabinet @jennygadget because one's face is threatened when issues are pointed out, and expanding...
Rose Lemberg @RoseLemberg
@KateElliottSFF @hawkwing_lb @fidelioscabinet @jennygadget ..one's horizons often involves quite a few missteps.
Somhairle Kelly @Eithin
@hawkwing_lb @RoseLemberg @KateElliottSFF @fidelioscabinet @jennygadget I'm used to hearing that song in a woman's voice, interestingly.
Liz Bourke @hawkwing_lb
@RoseLemberg @KateElliottSFF @fidelioscabinet @jennygadget I nominate someone whose timezone puts them in a diurnal period at this time!
Rose Lemberg @RoseLemberg
@hawkwing_lb @KateElliottSFF @fidelioscabinet @jennygadget totally would teach Socioling and/or Typology for SFF, good use of my PhD :D
Liz Bourke @hawkwing_lb
@Eithin @RoseLemberg @KateElliottSFF @fidelioscabinet @jennygadget Particularly if one has moved many bookshelves into the room with hearth.
Kate Elliott @KateElliottSFF
@RoseLemberg @hawkwing_lb @fidelioscabinet @jennygadget Material culture is often seen (although is not) as "lesser" +
Liz Bourke @hawkwing_lb
@Eithin @RoseLemberg @KateElliottSFF @fidelioscabinet @jennygadget There's a good reason for glass-fronted cabinets, what I'm saying here :)
Kate Elliott @KateElliottSFF
@RoseLemberg @hawkwing_lb @fidelioscabinet @jennygadget especially as compared to "theory," "abstract ideas," & other praised elements.
Kate Elliott @KateElliottSFF
@RoseLemberg @hawkwing_lb @fidelioscabinet @jennygadget Yet forex social space can be used in fantasy novels in such interesting ways.
Liz Bourke @hawkwing_lb
@KateElliottSFF @RoseLemberg @fidelioscabinet @jennygadget OY! All the archaeologists will SO not buy such people drinks... :D
Liz Bourke @hawkwing_lb
@KateElliottSFF @RoseLemberg @fidelioscabinet @jennygadget I'd really like to see it used more in SF. Fantasy at least sometimes gives a nod
Kate Elliott @KateElliottSFF
@hawkwing_lb @roselemberg @fidelioscabinet @jennygadget Haha!
Kate Elliott @KateElliottSFF
@hawkwing_lb @roselemberg @fidelioscabinet @jennygadget That's an interesting point about SF. Perhaps it flows too much from "now"?
Kate Elliott @KateElliottSFF
@hawkwing_lb @roselemberg @fidelioscabinet @jennygadget That is the unexamined flat US/UK/West now (as opposed to contoured now).
Kate Elliott @KateElliottSFF
@hawkwing_lb @roselemberg @fidelioscabinet @jennygadget In fantasy at least some writers may thing about how people used things differently
Liz Bourke @hawkwing_lb
@KateElliottSFF @RoseLemberg @fidelioscabinet @jennygadget Too much of it is thinly-veiled now or bit of (not well understood) history, yes.
Liz Bourke @hawkwing_lb
@KateElliottSFF @RoseLemberg @fidelioscabinet @jennygadget When it departs from this, gives as much attention to social as to science?
Cel West @Kosmogrrrl
@RoseLemberg @hawkwing_lb @fidelioscabinet @jennygadget @KateElliottSFF all of this is so wonderful; applies even more to RPGs, if anything
Liz Bourke @hawkwing_lb
@KateElliottSFF @RoseLemberg @fidelioscabinet @jennygadget It leaps upwards in quality.
Kate Elliott @KateElliottSFF
@hawkwing_lb @roselemberg @fidelioscabinet @jennygadget "Science" (& engineering) valorized, social denigrated as less important?
Rose Lemberg @RoseLemberg
@KateElliottSFF @hawkwing_lb @fidelioscabinet @jennygadget I hear that so often as a social scientist. (Socioling not real ling, etc).
Kate Elliott @KateElliottSFF
@RoseLemberg @hawkwing_lb @fidelioscabinet @jennygadget Maybe I'll do a post on "The Material Culture of Spiritwalker" +
Kate Elliott @KateElliottSFF
@hawkwing_lb @roselemberg @fidelioscabinet @jennygadget Or just a more general one about using material culture & social space in fantasy.
Liz Bourke @hawkwing_lb
@KateElliottSFF @RoseLemberg @fidelioscabinet @jennygadget Dare I hope for both? :)
Rose Lemberg @RoseLemberg
@KateElliottSFF @hawkwing_lb @fidelioscabinet @jennygadget Kate, please! That would be great.
Jenny Thurman @jennygadget
@RoseLemberg @hawkwing_lb @fidelioscabinet @kateelliottsff I know this convo is over! But I just wanted to add: yes!
Kate Elliott @KateElliottSFF
@jennygadget @roselemberg @hawkwing_lb @fidelioscabinet I'm reflecting on how dissing "obsessing over world building" +
Kate Elliott @KateElliottSFF
@jennygadget @roselemberg @hawkwing_lb @fidelioscabinet can b a diss of importance of material culture (where worldbuilding=/=magic system)
Jenny Thurman @jennygadget
@KateElliottSFF @roselemberg @hawkwing_lb @fidelioscabinet I think it can cover a lot of things, some good some bad.
Jenny Thurman @jennygadget
@KateElliottSFF @roselemberg @hawkwing_lb @fidelioscabinet bc I think if you are focusing on wold building but not on character, or...
Jenny Thurman @jennygadget
@KateElliottSFF @roselemberg @hawkwing_lb @fidelioscabinet focusing on only a few aspects of the world...thats too much of the wrong kind :)
So that's that! In closing I would like to note that I, too, would love to read rose_lemberg's novel.
I don't know if everyone involved is on LiveJournal or not; I know kateelliott is.
I will remind anyone reading this that the tweets copied here are the property of the original posters, as are the opinions expressed therein. If you want to copy and repost them and weren't a participant in the original conversation, check in with them and make sure it's all right with them. Linking to this is not a problem; the intention was to make sure there was an easily accessible copy of the conversation available for the participants.
I have done very little to rearrange the original threading here; as a result, this has the effect of the verbal equivalent of a very long jazz jam session. People perform little duets and trios while others perform solos. If this troubles you too much too follow what was said, I'm sorry. You should have tried copying it and being sure you got all the bits and pieces! I'm still not sure I've managed that; if anyone has something I should have included please let me know.
Liz Bourke @hawkwing_lb
I'm beginning to think that writers of epic fantasy and SF should be required to learn about the anthropology of material culture...
Somhairle Kelly @Eithin
@hawkwing_lb YES.
Liz Bourke @hawkwing_lb
@Eithin I'm reading on anthropologies of space and place right now, which is giving me academic words for what I already sort of intuited.
Rose Lemberg @RoseLemberg
@hawkwing_lb YES. This is exactly what I was thinking as I was writing my book (lots of material culture anthro in it).
Somhairle Kelly @Eithin
@hawkwing_lb Ooh, shiny. Do a bibliography post sometime?
Liz Bourke @hawkwing_lb
@Eithin But it's odd how much the understanding of how materiality and space conditions experience/culture - or how little - shows up in SFF
Liz Bourke @hawkwing_lb
@Eithin I'm due to produce a biblio for my institution by the end of April anyway... :)
Alex D MacFarlane @foxvertebrae
@hawkwing_lb @Eithin This sounds amazingly interesting! Also: YES.
Somhairle Kelly @Eithin
@hawkwing_lb The exceptions show up really well in comparison - GGK springs to mind, also @amtuomala.
Somhairle Kelly @Eithin
@hawkwing_lb Shiny :)
Catherine Baker @richmondbridge
@Eithin @hawkwing_lb Definitely yes.
Somhairle Kelly @Eithin
@hawkwing_lb Most SFF is informed only by cargo-cult, Nth-generation-xerox history - no arch. or anthro. or classics at all.
Liz Bourke @hawkwing_lb
@RoseLemberg Materiality, spatiality, sensory exp, all things that affect both behaviour & culture. What's invisible to one? Odd to others!
Beth Bernobich @beth_bernobich
@hawkwing_lb @RoseLemberg Yes! Yes! Yes!
Liz Bourke @hawkwing_lb
@Eithin There're a handful. @matociquala among them. Monette. I might put Jon Courtenay Grimwood in this category maaaybe.
Jenny Thurman @jennygadget
@hawkwing_lb "beginning"? :p
Liz Bourke @hawkwing_lb
@Eithin I think perhaps maybe @beth_bernobich. @stillsostrange too. But it is not so common particularly in BFF.
Liz Bourke @hawkwing_lb
@Eithin More anthro & history to go with handwavium. Part of what made @MorganJLocke's UP AGAINST IT so good was sense of history/cultures.
Liz Bourke @hawkwing_lb
@foxvertebrae @Eithin Poke at me to write longer than Twitter about it next week, would you? ;)
Liz Bourke @hawkwing_lb
@beth_bernobich @RoseLemberg And yet. How often does this really show up in non-othering ways in the fictions of the genre? Less often..
Rose Lemberg @RoseLemberg
@hawkwing_lb @beth_bernobich yes, because you actually need to know what you're doing. It's really good to have 1) a background in anthro...
Rose Lemberg @RoseLemberg
@hawkwing_lb @beth_bernobich ....2) an understanding of marginalizations, 3) some knowledge of multiple cultures
Liz Bourke @hawkwing_lb
@RoseLemberg @beth_bernobich Those last two rule out most white USian men... #ungenerous #butperhapsaccurate
Rose Lemberg @RoseLemberg
@hawkwing_lb @beth_bernobich not necessarily, one can be e.g. queer and well-traveled. One of the most clueful people I know is my advisor
Liz Bourke @hawkwing_lb
@RoseLemberg @beth_bernobich But I'm also thinking of how space and practice inter-relate. Fantasy royalty doesn't seem to have the +
Rose Lemberg @RoseLemberg
@hawkwing_lb @beth_bernobich who is white yet extremely wise, compassionate, well-traveled (also depressive and often drunk?) it can be done
Rose Lemberg @RoseLemberg
@hawkwing_lb @beth_bernobich though better w-out excessive alcohol
Liz Bourke @hawkwing_lb
@RoseLemberg @beth_bernobich + social/spatial relations and practices that is constitutive of historical royalty, often.
Liz Bourke @hawkwing_lb
@RoseLemberg @beth_bernobich Likewise the spatiality of fantasy and SFnal cityscapes doesn't nec'y make sense as practices are portrayed.
Somhairle Kelly @Eithin
@hawkwing_lb @RoseLemberg @beth_bernobich So many cities without coasts, rivers or farming hinterlands.
Liz Bourke @hawkwing_lb
@RoseLemberg @beth_bernobich Certainly not saying all, by any means! Far from it, in fact. (Probably should have said "a majority"?)
Rose Lemberg @RoseLemberg
@hawkwing_lb @beth_bernobich a majority would be my feeling, certainly. most are not moved to learn
Liz Bourke @hawkwing_lb
@Eithin @RoseLemberg @beth_bernobich Also the social divisions of space within cities & households & how space is used or subverted by +
Liz Bourke @hawkwing_lb
@Eithin @RoseLemberg @beth_bernobich + different classes of people, depending on the meanings ascribed to space/movement/place.
Rose Lemberg @RoseLemberg
@hawkwing_lb @Eithin @beth_bernobich I find most american authors have only limited understanding of both poverty and wealth
Rose Lemberg @RoseLemberg
@hawkwing_lb @Eithin @beth_bernobich in fantasy-like contexts, not talking about the US.
Rose Lemberg @RoseLemberg
@hawkwing_lb @Eithin @beth_bernobich yes. I know about this because I experienced poverty by US standards for many years yet was not poor...
Rose Lemberg @RoseLemberg
@hawkwing_lb @Eithin @beth_bernobich but rather slightly less than average by then-USSR standards. Yet, my father, working class, lived in..
Rose Lemberg @RoseLemberg
@hawkwing_lb @Eithin @beth_bernobich horrendous poverty, which is undescribable to US people. (he was an orphan)
Liz Bourke @hawkwing_lb
@RoseLemberg @Eithin @beth_bernobich In short, the *definitions* of "little" and "wealth" and how they change depending on situation/place.
Rose Lemberg @RoseLemberg
@hawkwing_lb @Eithin @beth_bernobich another issue of mine is agriculture. Same crops everywhere, and no thought is invested in how ...
Liz Bourke @hawkwing_lb
@RoseLemberg @Eithin @beth_bernobich Can I get you to expand on that?
Rose Lemberg @RoseLemberg
@hawkwing_lb @Eithin @beth_bernobich ..soil and weather conditions affect food supply and how that affects culture
Rose Lemberg @RoseLemberg
@hawkwing_lb @Eithin @beth_bernobich yet another peeve of mine is trade. Few people seem to understand/use the importance of trade ecomonics
Liz Bourke @hawkwing_lb
@RoseLemberg @Eithin @beth_bernobich Anecdote: the 18th & 19th century Irish labouring classes were an average of 3cm taller than English.+
Liz Bourke @hawkwing_lb
@RoseLemberg @Eithin @beth_bernobich + English ate bread predominantly: Irish ate potatoes, which had more nutrient value. Culture & diet...
Rose Lemberg @RoseLemberg
@hawkwing_lb @Eithin @beth_bernobich understanding lack as a way of life. e.g. significance of singular material objects. Having only a few
Rose Lemberg @RoseLemberg
@hawkwing_lb @Eithin @beth_bernobich having foods that repeat. e.g. only one grain, only one protein. Making do with little. not suffering
Rose Lemberg @RoseLemberg
@hawkwing_lb @Eithin @beth_bernobich outdoor plumbing - i rarely see it
Rose Lemberg @RoseLemberg
@hawkwing_lb @Eithin @beth_bernobich space considerations (how many people to a room), multiple generations in a room. how people smell
Rose Lemberg @RoseLemberg
@hawkwing_lb @Eithin @beth_bernobich what it entails to have clean clothing. What kind of clothing can be had
Somhairle Kelly @Eithin
@RoseLemberg @hawkwing_lb @beth_bernobich How high you can build, how densely, where you grow food & keep animals.
Rose Lemberg @RoseLemberg
@hawkwing_lb @Eithin @beth_bernobich in short, the nitty-gritty of living while having very little
Rose Lemberg @RoseLemberg
@hawkwing_lb @Eithin @beth_bernobich what kinds of aspirations would ppl have depending on socioeconomic class. How soc. mobility would work
Liz Bourke @hawkwing_lb
@RoseLemberg @Eithin @beth_bernobich I agree. No one remembers that wealthy usually travelled with mattresses & linens pre modernity either.
Rose Lemberg @RoseLemberg
@hawkwing_lb @Eithin @beth_bernobich in short, the nitty-gritty of living while having very little
Rose Lemberg @RoseLemberg
@Eithin @hawkwing_lb @beth_bernobich yes. The building issue I address extensively in my book. Another impt issue: healing, medication.
Rose Lemberg @RoseLemberg
@Eithin @hawkwing_lb @beth_bernobich how that would be stratified by class. Education stratified by class and the ramifications of it.
Rose Lemberg @RoseLemberg
@Eithin @hawkwing_lb @beth_bernobich finally, which is kind of the theme of my book, how language is stratified by class, and...
Rose Lemberg @RoseLemberg
@Eithin @hawkwing_lb @beth_bernobich ...how sociolects affect available opportunities for advancement and placement.
Somhairle Kelly @Eithin
@RoseLemberg @hawkwing_lb @beth_bernobich Shiny. I look forward to reading it even more, now!
Rose Lemberg @RoseLemberg
@hawkwing_lb @Eithin @beth_bernobich exactly. If country A will have certain diet, people might be shorter/taller than people in country B
Liz Bourke @hawkwing_lb
@RoseLemberg @Eithin @beth_bernobich In short, the *definitions* of "little" and "wealth" and how they change depending on situation/place.
Somhairle Kelly @Eithin
@hawkwing_lb @RoseLemberg @beth_bernobich One OK shortcut for SFF writers: read Hilary Mantel & CJ Sansom instead of Tolkien & Eddings!
Liz Bourke@hawkwing_lb
@RoseLemberg @Eithin @beth_bernobich Not a shortcut. Recommend instead London Labour and the London Poor. :)
Somhairle Kelly @Eithin
@hawkwing_lb @RoseLemberg @beth_bernobich Also Liza Picard's series on Victoria's London, Dr Johnson's London, etc.
Liz Bourke @hawkwing_lb
@Eithin @RoseLemberg @beth_bernobich I think it's good to read the 18th century novels... but yeah. Also stuff on non-US modern cities.
Rose Lemberg @RoseLemberg
@hawkwing_lb @Eithin @beth_bernobich THANK YOU.
Rose Lemberg @RoseLemberg
@hawkwing_lb @Eithin @beth_bernobich London gets some works because we talk about class in British context but it is not the only place
Somhairle Kelly @Eithin
@hawkwing_lb @RoseLemberg @beth_bernobich And maps - etymology of place names. I see far too many US-style "Oak Grove" etc.
Liz Bourke @hawkwing_lb
@RoseLemberg @Eithin @beth_bernobich To be honest with you? I started figuring out how use of space differs by reading travel writers.
Liz Bourke @hawkwing_lb
@RoseLemberg @Eithin @beth_bernobich Well, just one. A longterm resident of the Yemen and translator from the Arabic, Tim Macintosh-Smith.
Somhairle Kelly @Eithin
@hawkwing_lb @RoseLemberg @beth_bernobich I got there through living in cities and working on Welsh hill farms at the same time.
Liz Bourke @hawkwing_lb
@RoseLemberg @Eithin @beth_bernobich (Which is also how I came read the medieval Arabs who I'd never have heard of without him.)
Liz Bourke @hawkwing_lb
@RoseLemberg @Eithin @beth_bernobich - On travel writers, I think sometimes one has to start with interpreters and move on to indigenous +
Rose Lemberg @RoseLemberg
@hawkwing_lb @Eithin @beth_bernobich medieval Arabic writers rock.
Liz Bourke @hawkwing_lb
@RoseLemberg @Eithin @beth_bernobich + because so much of what a native resident takes for granted as self-explanatory isn't to an outsider.
Rose Lemberg @RoseLemberg
@hawkwing_lb @Eithin @beth_bernobich one can read commentaries #myfavoritething
Liz Bourke @hawkwing_lb
@RoseLemberg @Eithin @beth_bernobich But, say, forex, the use of space in modern Brazil or modern Qatar or modern Turkey or wherever is +
Liz Bourke @hawkwing_lb
@RoseLemberg @Eithin @beth_bernobich + also socially constituted in different ways, and may offer us different windows to understanding +
Liz Bourke @hawkwing_lb
@RoseLemberg @Eithin @beth_bernobich + the social and constitution of societies removed from the observer in *time* as well as distance.
Liz Bourke @hawkwing_lb
@RoseLemberg @Eithin @beth_bernobich I may be phrasing myself poorly, but we can ask the same questions of the space we already live in +
Liz Bourke @hawkwing_lb
@RoseLemberg @Eithin @beth_bernobich + but b/c we're not alienated from it socially/culturally/spatially, we still take things for granted.
Rose Lemberg @RoseLemberg
@hawkwing_lb @Eithin @beth_bernobich one thing I want to say is, no novel does everything perfectly, esp. multicultural novel
Liz Bourke @hawkwing_lb
@RoseLemberg @Eithin @beth_bernobich One can! With historical works. Commentaries for modern works are harder to find. ;)
Rose Lemberg @RoseLemberg
@hawkwing_lb @Eithin @beth_bernobich but I want more work that is not faily and works with the wealth of intersectionality.
Liz Bourke @hawkwing_lb
@RoseLemberg @Eithin @beth_bernobich Yes. YES YES YES. (Read more anthropology, Certain Genre Writers!)
At this point, more people began to show up, starting with kateelliott commenting on hawkwing_lb's original post. SO here we are, back at that beginning point.
RESTART THREAD
Liz Bourke @hawkwing_lb
I'm beginning to think that writers of epic fantasy and SF should be required to learn about the anthropology of material culture...
Kate Elliott @KateElliottSFF
@hawkwing_lb obviously I would agree
Liz Bourke @hawkwing_lb
@KateElliottSFF Obviously, you already know much of this. :)
Kate Elliott @KateElliottSFF
@hawkwing_lb it can never be talked about enough because it is so ignored and overlooked and dismissed of rather invisible
Kate Elliott @KateElliottSFF
@hawkwing_lb Issues of material culture examined within sff are never seen as "innovative" the way, oh, other stuff is.
Kate Elliott @KateElliottSFF
@hawkwing_lb Love the way the convo is framing it analytically. I don't have those writing chops.
Liz Bourke @hawkwing_lb
@KateElliottSFF One does one's poor best. I'm just watching @RoseLemberg in a kind of intellectual awe, however. :)
Rose Lemberg @RoseLemberg
@hawkwing_lb @KateElliottSFF Kate, you are one of the few people on my list of writers who do this kind of thing.
Kate Elliott @KateElliottSFF
@hawkwing_lb @roselemberg Yes, I should have mentioned her as well -- distracted by soup (lunch). Now corrected.
Liz Bourke @hawkwing_lb
@KateElliottSFF *salutes* @RoseLemberg
Kate Elliott @KateElliottSFF
Really interesting stuff on @hawkwing_lb 's TL on material culture, social space, and sff.
Jenny Thurman @jennygadget
@KateElliottSFF Ther is always interesting stuff on @hawkwing_lb's TL :p
fidelio @fidelioscabinet
@jennygadget @kateelliottsff @hawkwing_lb Always!
Liz Bourke@hawkwing_lb
@fidelioscabinet @jennygadget @KateElliottSFF You all should be reading @RoseLemberg, who's the one making this conversation really work!
Kate Elliott @KateElliottSFF
For material culture & social spaces ALSO follow @roselemberg 's TL. Serious stuff, well analyzed.
[Brief and hilarious side discussion of Rose's son's dinner, which leads to:]
Rose Lemberg @RoseLemberg
@hawkwing_lb @fidelioscabinet @jennygadget @KateElliottSFF which reminds me, one of the class-dependent things is attitudes towards childrn
Rose Lemberg @RoseLemberg
@hawkwing_lb @fidelioscabinet @jennygadget @KateElliottSFF how many, at what age, how they are seen/received, genders
Liz Bourke @hawkwing_lb
@RoseLemberg Yes. And what's appropriate to do to/with them depends on socio-cultural stuff. @fidelioscabinet @jennygadget @KateElliottSFF
Liz Bourke @hawkwing_lb
@RoseLemberg @fidelioscabinet @jennygadget @KateElliottSFF From child labour to baby cages to public nursing to "helicopter" parenting.
Jenny Thurman @jennygadget
@RoseLemberg @hawkwing_lb @fidelioscabinet @kateelliottsff also it bothers me when children dont seem to exist- kids working or playing etc
Rose Lemberg @RoseLemberg
@hawkwing_lb @fidelioscabinet @jennygadget @KateElliottSFF don't forget extended families. I always, always write about grandmothers
Rose Lemberg @RoseLemberg
@hawkwing_lb @fidelioscabinet @jennygadget @KateElliottSFF American-centric writing focuses on the nuclear family. Not my experience elsewhr
Liz Bourke @hawkwing_lb
@RoseLemberg @fidelioscabinet @jennygadget @KateElliottSFF Kinship &social relations. They work differently depending on so many factors.
Kate Elliott @KateElliottSFF
@RoseLemberg @hawkwing_lb @fidelioscabinet @jennygadget And the nuclear family is rare historically as well.
Kate Elliott @KateElliottSFF
@RoseLemberg @hawkwing_lb @fidelioscabinet @jennygadget So much lack in fantasy of understanding of family & clan structures & alliances
Liz Bourke @hawkwing_lb
@RoseLemberg @fidelioscabinet @jennygadget @KateElliottSFF The idea of the nuclear family is a culturally constituted one. (Hate that idea.)
Liz Bourke @hawkwing_lb
@RoseLemberg @fidelioscabinet @jennygadget @KateElliottSFF (Since it's so often used as a cudgel against other modes of being-in-the-family)
Kate Elliott @KateElliottSFF
@hawkwing_lb @roselemberg @fidelioscabinet @jennygadget The specific USAian 50s + suburban nuclear family I would call an aberration.
Rose Lemberg @RoseLemberg
@hawkwing_lb @fidelioscabinet @jennygadget @KateElliottSFF part of nuclear family idea is spatial mobility and the idea of space.
Rose Lemberg @RoseLemberg
@hawkwing_lb @fidelioscabinet @jennygadget @KateElliottSFF growing up, I lived in 2 rooms (rooms, not bedrooms) with four generations
Liz Bourke @hawkwing_lb
@KateElliottSFF @RoseLemberg Historically, "family" or "household" may include servants, adult siblings, affines, so many other persons...
Rose Lemberg @RoseLemberg
@hawkwing_lb @fidelioscabinet @jennygadget @KateElliottSFF my great-grandfather of blessed memory entertained his old musician friends
Kate Elliott @KateElliottSFF
@RoseLemberg @hawkwing_lb @fidelioscabinet @jennygadget Levels of privacy. Understandings of privacy and "autonomy"
Rose Lemberg @RoseLemberg
@hawkwing_lb @fidelioscabinet @jennygadget @KateElliottSFF I slept with my grandmother and great-grandfather in 1 room. parents in another
Kate Elliott @KateElliottSFF
@hawkwing_lb @roselemberg Exactly. How and when people were/could be/wanted to be "alone" differs radically.
Rose Lemberg @RoseLemberg
@hawkwing_lb @fidelioscabinet @jennygadget @KateElliottSFF then parents+brother, and grandparents+me. it was the best! everybody was happy.
Rose Lemberg @RoseLemberg
@hawkwing_lb @fidelioscabinet @jennygadget @KateElliottSFF that without much extended family, most perished in the Holocaust
Liz Bourke @hawkwing_lb
@KateElliottSFF @RoseLemberg @fidelioscabinet @jennygadget Privacy in its modern incarnation is a relatively new development, I hazard.
Rose Lemberg @RoseLemberg
@hawkwing_lb @fidelioscabinet @jennygadget @KateElliottSFF but often my great-aunt stayed over, she played the trombone + grandpa the fiddle
Liz Bourke @hawkwing_lb
@KateElliottSFF @RoseLemberg @fidelioscabinet @jennygadget (Autonomy as *ideal* maybe less so, as achievable? Another thing entirely.)
Rose Lemberg @RoseLemberg
@hawkwing_lb @KateElliottSFF @fidelioscabinet @jennygadget I often find it difficult to explain how happymany people can be in 2 small rooms
Kate Elliott @KateElliottSFF
@hawkwing_lb @roselemberg @fidelioscabinet @jennygadget I would hazard that too.
Rose Lemberg @RoseLemberg
@hawkwing_lb @KateElliottSFF @fidelioscabinet @jennygadget it seemed palatial compared to previous: communal apt., shared kitchen, 1 room
Liz Bourke @hawkwing_lb
@RoseLemberg @KateElliottSFF @fidelioscabinet @jennygadget Think possibly most USians have very great attachment to "personal space."
Rose Lemberg @RoseLemberg
@KateElliottSFF @hawkwing_lb @fidelioscabinet @jennygadget privacy existed historically, but often not within the home
Liz Bourke @hawkwing_lb
@RoseLemberg @KateElliottSFF @fidelioscabinet @jennygadget Seems constitutive of sense of status and self, "personal space."
Rose Lemberg @RoseLemberg
@KateElliottSFF @hawkwing_lb @fidelioscabinet @jennygadget + I find ppl respect one another in small spaces - small motions, heads turn away
Rose Lemberg @RoseLemberg
@hawkwing_lb @KateElliottSFF @fidelioscabinet @jennygadget one does not need a lot. Space is significant to identity. (1)
Kate Elliott @KateElliottSFF
@hawkwing_lb @roselemberg @fidelioscabinet @jennygadget &what does "autonomy" even mean? A limited definition is not a universal definition.
Rose Lemberg @RoseLemberg
@hawkwing_lb @KateElliottSFF @fidelioscabinet @jennygadget but space does not have to be OWNED. (2)
Rose Lemberg @RoseLemberg
@hawkwing_lb @KateElliottSFF @fidelioscabinet @jennygadget I think it is the concept of ownership, and how much is owned, that is different.
Kate Elliott @KateElliottSFF
@RoseLemberg @hawkwing_lb @fidelioscabinet @jennygadget Exactly.
Rose Lemberg @RoseLemberg
@hawkwing_lb @KateElliottSFF @fidelioscabinet @jennygadget I tell my students to look for items immigrants brought. Always a few if poor
Liz Bourke @hawkwing_lb
@RoseLemberg @KateElliottSFF @fidelioscabinet @jennygadget Truth.
Kate Elliott @KateElliottSFF
@RoseLemberg @hawkwing_lb @fidelioscabinet @jennygadget Yes. Much agreed.
Rose Lemberg @RoseLemberg
@hawkwing_lb @KateElliottSFF @fidelioscabinet @jennygadget but something. e.g. Jewish immigrants - women often brought candlesticks.
Liz Bourke @hawkwing_lb
@KateElliottSFF @RoseLemberg @fidelioscabinet @jennygadget I can tell you how the ancient Greeks defined it... :D
Rose Lemberg @RoseLemberg
@KateElliottSFF @hawkwing_lb @fidelioscabinet @jennygadget not just philosophies of possession, but the very way to linguistically express..
Rose Lemberg @RoseLemberg
@KateElliottSFF @hawkwing_lb @fidelioscabinet @jennygadget ..possession varies cross-linguistically. English is different from many
Rose Lemberg @RoseLemberg
@KateElliottSFF @hawkwing_lb @fidelioscabinet @jennygadget I can go into the typology of possession expressions but it is not good short
Kate Elliott @KateElliottSFF
@RoseLemberg @hawkwing_lb @fidelioscabinet @jennygadget Yes. This. I wish more people would consider more how language directs choices +
Kate Elliott @KateElliottSFF
@RoseLemberg @hawkwing_lb @fidelioscabinet @jennygadget Also how much unexamined modern expectations of space, etc, inform so much fantasy
Rose Lemberg @RoseLemberg
@KateElliottSFF @hawkwing_lb @fidelioscabinet @jennygadget I would love to teach "linguistic typology for SFF writers" one day. :D
Kate Elliott @KateElliottSFF
@RoseLemberg @hawkwing_lb @fidelioscabinet @jennygadget Yes, that would be great.
Rose Lemberg @RoseLemberg
@KateElliottSFF @hawkwing_lb @fidelioscabinet @jennygadget hard to do. In the novel I just finished, sociolinguistics is the story's core
Liz Bourke @hawkwing_lb
@KateElliottSFF @RoseLemberg @fidelioscabinet @jennygadget That and architecture. Would like to see ARCHITECTURE FOR FANTASISTS one day.
Kate Elliott @KateElliottSFF
@RoseLemberg What are you doing with the novel? I mean, have you specific publication goals?
Rose Lemberg @RoseLemberg
@KateElliottSFF @hawkwing_lb @fidelioscabinet @jennygadget I struggled with conveying through English, even though I knew what I was doing
Rose Lemberg @RoseLemberg
@KateElliottSFF I would love to publish it in a mainstream press. I just finished revising. I am pro-published in short stories but...
Kate Elliott @KateElliottSFF
@hawkwing_lb @roselemberg @fidelioscabinet @jennygadget At Worldcon 2010 Russell Kirkpatrick did an excellent presentation on maps.
Rose Lemberg @RoseLemberg
@KateElliottSFF like writing novels more, so have not written many stories. This novel is the first I am marketing; have not started yet
Rose Lemberg @RoseLemberg
@KateElliottSFF am working on my query, trying to find out who would potentially rep such a work. It is complex. Actiony, but complex
Deirdre Murphy @Wyld_Dandelyon
@RoseLemberg @KateElliottSFF @hawkwing_lb @fidelioscabinet @jennygadget I wish for a way to express connected to but not owned by in English
Liz Bourke @hawkwing_lb
@KateElliottSFF @RoseLemberg @fidelioscabinet @jennygadget Modern, urban, middle class expectations. What I see, with many - tho' not all +
Rose Lemberg @RoseLemberg
@KateElliottSFF FWIW Shweta Narayan beta-read it and could tell you what she thought if you'd like.
Liz Bourke @hawkwing_lb
@KateElliottSFF @RoseLemberg @fidelioscabinet @jennygadget + nor even a large majority of US BFF writers is a lack of historical layering.
@hawkwing_lb @roselemberg @fidelioscabinet @jennygadget A whole set of subjects that would make an awesome weekend seminar (short version)
Rose Lemberg @RoseLemberg
@hawkwing_lb @fidelioscabinet @jennygadget @KateElliottSFF additional complication: a society can be class-stratified, but might contain (1)
Rose Lemberg @RoseLemberg
@hawkwing_lb @fidelioscabinet @jennygadget @KateElliottSFF ...a minority group, stratified in a different way
Rose Lemberg @RoseLemberg
@Wyld_Dandelyon @KateElliottSFF @hawkwing_lb @fidelioscabinet @jennygadget Yes! there is a way to do so in many languages. Coexisting with.
Liz Bourke @hawkwing_lb
@KateElliottSFF @RoseLemberg @fidelioscabinet @jennygadget There is no stratigraphy, or only very basic, both socially and materially.
Rose Lemberg @RoseLemberg
@Wyld_Dandelyon @KateElliottSFF @hawkwing_lb @fidelioscabinet @jennygadget esp. pertinent in sacred contexts, for sacred/significant objects
Rose Lemberg @RoseLemberg
@hawkwing_lb @KateElliottSFF @fidelioscabinet @jennygadget AAAH YES. That is also on my mind a lot. "Comfort", e.g. is a modern notion
Kate Elliott @KateElliottSFF
@RoseLemberg Uh. Could I read it (not as a beta reader)?
Liz Bourke @hawkwing_lb
@KateElliottSFF @RoseLemberg @fidelioscabinet @jennygadget Whereas society & historic space/materiality is almost always stratified.Layered.
Kate Elliott @KateElliottSFF
@RoseLemberg And I won't be insulted if you say no.
Kate Elliott @KateElliottSFF
@hawkwing_lb @roselemberg @fidelioscabinet @jennygadget I once explained to a young writer that a "queen" did not lounge about the castle +
Kate Elliott @KateElliottSFF
@hawkwing_lb @roselemberg @fidelioscabinet @jennygadget bemoaning that her only child was now grown up & she had nothing to do +
Liz Bourke @hawkwing_lb
@RoseLemberg @KateElliottSFF @fidelioscabinet @jennygadget Not sure it is *entirely* modern. But the expectation/hope of living without +
Rose Lemberg @RoseLemberg
@KateElliottSFF *blush* but... but you are one of my favorite authors! *blush* Yes. Of course! Thank you!!!
Deirdre Murphy @Wyld_Dandelyon
@RoseLemberg @KateElliottSFF @hawkwing_lb @fidelioscabinet @jennygadget "My spouse/friend" is so much more th coexisting, but NOT ownership!
Kate Elliott @KateElliottSFF
@hawkwing_lb @roselemberg @fidelioscabinet @jennygadget To his credit, the writer GOT IT. Rewrote the bk. The queen became a major character
Kate Elliott @KateElliottSFF
@hawkwing_lb @roselemberg @fidelioscabinet @jennygadget All I can do is keep saying YES.
Liz Bourke @hawkwing_lb
@RoseLemberg @KateElliottSFF @fidelioscabinet @jennygadget + a background radiation of discomfort/injury/pain, that's a distinctly modern +
Rose Lemberg @RoseLemberg
@hawkwing_lb @KateElliottSFF @fidelioscabinet @jennygadget Actually, this article gives a great summary http://www.apartmenttherapy.com/history-of-comfort-183661...
Liz Bourke @hawkwing_lb
@RoseLemberg @KateElliottSFF @fidelioscabinet @jennygadget + idea of a lived "normality" not present in agrarian or premodern societies.
Rose Lemberg @RoseLemberg
@hawkwing_lb @KateElliottSFF @fidelioscabinet @jennygadget Carolyn Purnell had some very good work lately, e.g. http://www.apartmenttherapy.com/color-chromophobia-and-colonialism-some-historical-thoughts-185710...
Rose Lemberg @RoseLemberg
@hawkwing_lb @KateElliottSFF @fidelioscabinet @jennygadget I hope she writes a book one day.
Rose Lemberg @RoseLemberg
@hawkwing_lb @KateElliottSFF @fidelioscabinet @jennygadget in Russian peasant homes, definitely cleanliness, function, heat, food.
Rose Lemberg @RoseLemberg
@hawkwing_lb @KateElliottSFF @fidelioscabinet @jennygadget function included where to sleep, where to host, where to weave.
Rose Lemberg @RoseLemberg
@hawkwing_lb @KateElliottSFF @fidelioscabinet @jennygadget in more affluent homes - display of wealth, social status, connections
Liz Bourke @hawkwing_lb
@RoseLemberg @KateElliottSFF @fidelioscabinet @jennygadget Ah. Comfort qua "comfort" as emergent property of middle/consumer class.
Liz Bourke @hawkwing_lb
@RoseLemberg @KateElliottSFF @fidelioscabinet @jennygadget Was thinking of existence of luxury and ease versus comfort qua comfort.
Kate Elliott @KateElliottSFF
@RoseLemberg @hawkwing_lb @fidelioscabinet @jennygadget So why isn't all this discussed more in the context of sff? I know the easy answer.
Somhairle Kelly @Eithin
@hawkwing_lb @RoseLemberg @KateElliottSFF @fidelioscabinet @jennygadget Related: The Old Turf Fire [NB: or here? Youtube and I have issues with my links]
Liz Bourke @hawkwing_lb
@KateElliottSFF @fidelioscabinet @jennygadget Because no one has invited @RoseLemberg to be academic GoH and give all the seminars yet?
Rose Lemberg @RoseLemberg
@KateElliottSFF @hawkwing_lb @fidelioscabinet @jennygadget btw I think we might need a transcript of this discussion :D
Rose Lemberg @RoseLemberg
@KateElliottSFF @hawkwing_lb @fidelioscabinet @jennygadget Kate, it is very hard to do cluefully, payoff currently small +
Rose Lemberg @RoseLemberg
@KateElliottSFF @hawkwing_lb @fidelioscabinet @jennygadget many people get defensive when issues are pointed out, unwilling to learn
Liz Bourke @hawkwing_lb
@Eithin @RoseLemberg @KateElliottSFF @fidelioscabinet @jennygadget There is nothing so awkward to clean as a hearth and the dust of smoke.
Rose Lemberg @RoseLemberg
@KateElliottSFF @hawkwing_lb @fidelioscabinet @jennygadget because one's face is threatened when issues are pointed out, and expanding...
Rose Lemberg @RoseLemberg
@KateElliottSFF @hawkwing_lb @fidelioscabinet @jennygadget ..one's horizons often involves quite a few missteps.
Somhairle Kelly @Eithin
@hawkwing_lb @RoseLemberg @KateElliottSFF @fidelioscabinet @jennygadget I'm used to hearing that song in a woman's voice, interestingly.
Liz Bourke @hawkwing_lb
@RoseLemberg @KateElliottSFF @fidelioscabinet @jennygadget I nominate someone whose timezone puts them in a diurnal period at this time!
Rose Lemberg @RoseLemberg
@hawkwing_lb @KateElliottSFF @fidelioscabinet @jennygadget totally would teach Socioling and/or Typology for SFF, good use of my PhD :D
Liz Bourke @hawkwing_lb
@Eithin @RoseLemberg @KateElliottSFF @fidelioscabinet @jennygadget Particularly if one has moved many bookshelves into the room with hearth.
Kate Elliott @KateElliottSFF
@RoseLemberg @hawkwing_lb @fidelioscabinet @jennygadget Material culture is often seen (although is not) as "lesser" +
Liz Bourke @hawkwing_lb
@Eithin @RoseLemberg @KateElliottSFF @fidelioscabinet @jennygadget There's a good reason for glass-fronted cabinets, what I'm saying here :)
Kate Elliott @KateElliottSFF
@RoseLemberg @hawkwing_lb @fidelioscabinet @jennygadget especially as compared to "theory," "abstract ideas," & other praised elements.
Kate Elliott @KateElliottSFF
@RoseLemberg @hawkwing_lb @fidelioscabinet @jennygadget Yet forex social space can be used in fantasy novels in such interesting ways.
Liz Bourke @hawkwing_lb
@KateElliottSFF @RoseLemberg @fidelioscabinet @jennygadget OY! All the archaeologists will SO not buy such people drinks... :D
Liz Bourke @hawkwing_lb
@KateElliottSFF @RoseLemberg @fidelioscabinet @jennygadget I'd really like to see it used more in SF. Fantasy at least sometimes gives a nod
Kate Elliott @KateElliottSFF
@hawkwing_lb @roselemberg @fidelioscabinet @jennygadget Haha!
Kate Elliott @KateElliottSFF
@hawkwing_lb @roselemberg @fidelioscabinet @jennygadget That's an interesting point about SF. Perhaps it flows too much from "now"?
Kate Elliott @KateElliottSFF
@hawkwing_lb @roselemberg @fidelioscabinet @jennygadget That is the unexamined flat US/UK/West now (as opposed to contoured now).
Kate Elliott @KateElliottSFF
@hawkwing_lb @roselemberg @fidelioscabinet @jennygadget In fantasy at least some writers may thing about how people used things differently
Liz Bourke @hawkwing_lb
@KateElliottSFF @RoseLemberg @fidelioscabinet @jennygadget Too much of it is thinly-veiled now or bit of (not well understood) history, yes.
Liz Bourke @hawkwing_lb
@KateElliottSFF @RoseLemberg @fidelioscabinet @jennygadget When it departs from this, gives as much attention to social as to science?
Cel West @Kosmogrrrl
@RoseLemberg @hawkwing_lb @fidelioscabinet @jennygadget @KateElliottSFF all of this is so wonderful; applies even more to RPGs, if anything
Liz Bourke @hawkwing_lb
@KateElliottSFF @RoseLemberg @fidelioscabinet @jennygadget It leaps upwards in quality.
Kate Elliott @KateElliottSFF
@hawkwing_lb @roselemberg @fidelioscabinet @jennygadget "Science" (& engineering) valorized, social denigrated as less important?
Rose Lemberg @RoseLemberg
@KateElliottSFF @hawkwing_lb @fidelioscabinet @jennygadget I hear that so often as a social scientist. (Socioling not real ling, etc).
Kate Elliott @KateElliottSFF
@RoseLemberg @hawkwing_lb @fidelioscabinet @jennygadget Maybe I'll do a post on "The Material Culture of Spiritwalker" +
Kate Elliott @KateElliottSFF
@hawkwing_lb @roselemberg @fidelioscabinet @jennygadget Or just a more general one about using material culture & social space in fantasy.
Liz Bourke @hawkwing_lb
@KateElliottSFF @RoseLemberg @fidelioscabinet @jennygadget Dare I hope for both? :)
Rose Lemberg @RoseLemberg
@KateElliottSFF @hawkwing_lb @fidelioscabinet @jennygadget Kate, please! That would be great.
Jenny Thurman @jennygadget
@RoseLemberg @hawkwing_lb @fidelioscabinet @kateelliottsff I know this convo is over! But I just wanted to add: yes!
Kate Elliott @KateElliottSFF
@jennygadget @roselemberg @hawkwing_lb @fidelioscabinet I'm reflecting on how dissing "obsessing over world building" +
Kate Elliott @KateElliottSFF
@jennygadget @roselemberg @hawkwing_lb @fidelioscabinet can b a diss of importance of material culture (where worldbuilding=/=magic system)
Jenny Thurman @jennygadget
@KateElliottSFF @roselemberg @hawkwing_lb @fidelioscabinet I think it can cover a lot of things, some good some bad.
Jenny Thurman @jennygadget
@KateElliottSFF @roselemberg @hawkwing_lb @fidelioscabinet bc I think if you are focusing on wold building but not on character, or...
Jenny Thurman @jennygadget
@KateElliottSFF @roselemberg @hawkwing_lb @fidelioscabinet focusing on only a few aspects of the world...thats too much of the wrong kind :)
So that's that! In closing I would like to note that I, too, would love to read rose_lemberg's novel.