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[chelonianmobile]

Okay, I apologise profusely for recent arguments on Fanficrants. I was evidently misinformed, and apparently holding a higher view of humanity than was called for. I should not have let myself be drawn into an argument, regardless of the topic, and I did get rude and offensive. The offensiveness was honestly unintentional and due to

Comments

[keysora]

I dunno if I missed another rant, but I wouldn't call what you were involved in a "flame war". We get much worse. That said, you were rude and offensive, and it was good of you to apologize. That also said, you should be careful not to break up "intentional offensiveness" and "non-intentional offensiveness." Even if you didn't mean to be offensive, you were, and it doesn't get you off the hook. "I didn't mean to hurt you" doesn't matter to the people you hurt, and it takes away from your apology because it becomes more about defending yourself.

[chelonianmobile]

Okay, sorry for that too, my mis-phrasing.

It really was an honest mistake. I've always been told and agreed with the notion that men and women should be treated equally and I guess I just applied it too broadly in this case. My social skills aren't marvellous and I still have the tendency from my childhood to assume everyone actually is the same and should be treated so.

[keysora]

It's not an uncommon mistake, really. The thing is, there's a difference between "men and women should be equal", and "men and women ARE equal." Gender equality is the ideal but it's not how things really are. And we aren't going to achieve equality by pretending that women are not still treated inferior to men. It's not bad to say that you think men and women should be equal but it is bad if you don't know that currently, they just aren't.

There's a lot to learn, and it's not a crime to not know about these things right away. It is bad though to argue about things you don't know very much about, you know? I've made that mistake before, too. There's lots of reading you can do on this subject to understand why people disagree with you.

[chelonianmobile]

Thanks. I did think the best way to get equality is to try to interact with people as if they are equal, but clearly that doesn't work in 100% of situations, and "equal" doesn't necessarily mean the same thing as "identical".

[sunhawk]

1) We're not the people you should be apologizing to, if you are in fact trying to genuinely apologize.

2) I have a hard time seeing this as apology since it's really more of a fauxpology, what with your snarky comment about "holding a higher view of humanity" - get your nose out of the clouds and you'll sound much more sincere.

3) You need to do more reading on Feminism 101, a good place to start would be:

http://finallyfeminism101.wordpress.com/where-to-start/faq-i-asked-some-feminists-a-question-and-instead-of-answering-they-sent-me-here-why/

Also specifically:

http://finallyfeminism101.wordpress.com/2007/10/18/phmt-argument/

And keep reading, because you've got a ways to go before you can honestly say you understand the issues you tried to tackle.

[chelonianmobile]

I don't see the use in directing an apology to people who also argued as much as I did, got more out of control than me, swore at me, and stated that they don't care what I think. I'm apologising to people who were also affected and are actually willing to accept an apology.

[sunhawk]

Well maybe you shouldn't try to apologize until you understand what you are really apologizing for, which your comments don't lead me to believe you do. Don't apologize just to try to not look bad or get people to leave you alone, that's a shitty insincere way to apologize and people generally see right through it. Apologize because you feel bad for hurting people, which is why you had someone yell at you, because you have been saying offensive, ignorant things about sexism and misogyny that support the oppression of women, especially queer women.

You essentially stepped on some people's toes and you are blaming them for shouting in pain. Apologize for that but it's oppressive to suggest when minority groups are hurt, they should just keep quiet and not be angry. They have every right to be hurt and angry.

[rhube]

Ah, it is a fauxpology, then. You really weren't interested in anything but appearing to have the higher ground to people you thought would just assume you were the injured party without any details. :-/

[acediance]

You know, from your comments in that thread and your comments here (and from comments in other posts), you're coming across like you think we're here to educate you. We're not. When you say offensive things, people will jump on you - and yes, you said offensive things. No, you don't seem to have whatever you need to argue meaningfully on this topic. Don't pretend like you do and then get upset when it becomes clear you haven't a clue.

I'm not buying this apology either, because it seems like you're apologizing more for starting a flamewar/filling up inboxes (and pointing out that your offensiveness was unintentional) than for being offensive. You haven't learned anything - you're right back to "I don't make assumptions about anyone based on their gender", which is what you were going for originally, so we're all back to square one. If you're serious about apologizing, apologize to the people in the comment threads over there

[chelonianmobile]

Apologies only work when people will accept them, therefore I'm not directing them at people who swore at me and flounced off. I asked a question and wasn't given an answer that I felt satisfied the question, so I continued to ask. I asked offensively and let it escalate into an argument and I am truly sorry for that, but I don't feel it was wrong to ask a question in a discussion.

[keysora]

See, you're not really listening to what people are trying to tell you. If you're not apologizing to the people who swore at you, then you're not apologizing to the right people. The people who yelled at you are some of the people that you offended the most

[thezmage]

Just saying, but when you find yourself in a hole, the best thing to do is to stop digging. Sometimes you come across looking a lot better and offending a lot less people if you simply drop out of the entire conversation.

[chromde]

I can't find the incident in question. Would someone be kind enough to give me a link? That way I can better understand where the OP is coming from. :)

Also: OP, there's this little thing called Derailing for Dummies. One of the options is to expect the person you offended/others to educate you. That's not fair. It's like saying you can't be bothered to do the research yourself, because you don't care enough too. Just a hint. There a multitude of great resources out there for beginners in any area. (Which area, I'm not sure, though I see something about lesbians?)

[dancing_chimera]

http://community.livejournal.com/fanficrants/10140435.html?thread=323758355#t323866131

[chromde]

Ooh. This exploded since I was last there.

Thanks! :)

[sunhawk]

Dude I'm sorry you had to deal with that, wtf.

[akashathekitty]

Fauxpology from someone starving for validation.

That's the vibe I'm getting from this.

I didn't like you in that thread, but then you mostly just seemed clueless. Now you're flaunting that cluelessness to the world after people have already tried to educate you? No, just no.

You're simply doing this hoping to get brownie points for taking the "high road", aren't you? You apologise profusely, hold a higher view of humanity than was called for, let yourself be drawn into an argument and merely got overemotional. And then you begin to justify yourself. Sorry, hon, it's clear that you believe yourself to be looking at this from a higher place than you actually are