Oh wow--I never considered that potential connection with Azazel's faction, but wow. It fits really neatly (leaving out the retcon, which I do; for me, through s11 is firm canon, s12 gets a bit wobbly, and I kind of throw s13-15 out the window, at least in terms of lore/characterization. Individual episodes are enjoyable, but it got pretty hit-or-miss in terms of consistency with past material), and also makes her character a little easier for me to accept. Something about her always really bugged me, but you've done a great job of spelling out exactly what, and offering some interesting alternatives from fandom's standard surface-y read.
Thanks! I'm really pleased you found my breakdown of the character interesting.
You've been more generous with the later seasons than I've been. I can only actually consider the first 5 season canon. They told a complete story that made perfect sense. Season 6 and parts of 7 still felt like 'show' to me because I think Sera Gamble was genuinely trying to keep up Kripke's legacy, but I think she started losing control of the writing team soon after his departure. Everything from S8 onward I regard as professional fan fiction at best.
Ah, well, I can understand that. But I didn't start actively watching until the end of s9, so that probably skews my preferences for what I consider "canon"--making the showrunner I started with the endpoint for canon. :P
I do think from a characterization and (mostly) a lore standpoint, s12 is where things started getting significantly dodgy; the start of s8 aside, for me Carter's run held together relatively well with the Kripke/Gamble era, with s11 as a second season-long highpoint after s2. (But then, I've always been a MotW kind of gal....)
I can certainly understand that coming in at season 9 would give you a very different perspective on the show. You started watching at a point where I was strongly considering giving up, and my husband actually did give it up. At the time, though, I was tied in by a SPN serial I was writing, and I felt I needed to know what was going on on the show since most of my readers were still watching. Coming to regard it all as professional fan fiction was my coping mechanism for dealing with the sense of disconnect I felt between the Kripke and post-Kripke eras.
I think I read somewhere that Missouri was to be their go-to person for lore they didn't know. It would fit with your idea that she was one of Azazel's team. I mean, who would know better about all the things that go bump in the night than one of them?
Making Missouri a hunter in the layer episode doesn't really make sense. Getting pregnant to pass on her psychic abilities sure, but that doesn't fit with her being one of Azazel's team. I don't know what to think.
I just think the later episodes are bad writing, possibly because the writers didn't know the backstory in the show.
Well, there was nobody left from the original writing team by the time Patience was written, and the episode writers didn't join the team until after Kripke was long gone. I doubt if anyone knew or cared what his original plans for the character were. I'm not sure they even bothered to watch Home before they brought Missouri back!
Thanks so much for all your wonderful comments :)))
Thank you for your insights and being willing to delve into the behavior and motivations of Missouri is sometimes put on a pedestal within fandom. I have to echo your feelings. I think her treatment of Dean on first watch is more palatable for the reasons you mentioned. Dean picks on Sam, a lot throughout the series but especially in S1 - uncomfortably so (for me) at times. I absolutely was amused by Missouri’s interactions with Dean in the initial scene at her home as it felt justified that he got some of that nitpicking back. Maybe also because it often seems Dean’s charm and good looks win over a lot of people so it was interesting to see someone who was…not impressed
( ... )
Yes, I agree, Dean gets away with a lot of shit because of his charm and good looks, and his treatment of Sam is uncomfortable. (I think we're supposed to feel that way). But while that may make Missouri's behaviour easier to overlook at first, it doesn't justify it. Two wrongs don't make a right, as they say. Good on you for picking up on that first watch. As, I say, it took me longer. Too long. Possibly because I was familiar with the actress from another show where she played a likeable character, so I was already predisposed to like her.
Yes, the episode stands up well as a creepy MoTW as well as a myth arc episode and, as you say, the John reveal at the end is an iconic moment. It's one of my favourite all time episodes.
I'm so glad you liked the recap. Many thanks for reading and commenting. I really appreciate your support.
You have interesting ideas about Missouri, as an alternative to what happened in canon (Azazel killing Mary).
I think Missouri was reacting to Dean giving her attitude. Starting off with him saying since she's a psychic, she should know where his dad is. After that, she also reacted to rude things that he was thinking (wanting to put his feet on the table, for example.) Later on, when she says he isn't the sharpest tool in the shed, she's referring to Dean being insensitive to Jenny's feelings. So, I see it as specific to that moment, not necessarily a description of Dean being dumb in general. But yes, she does pick on him quite a bit, like saying he was a goofy looking kid. But I think it's just Missouri's personality... if a person doesn't get on her good side and isn't respectul to her, then she'll continue to have an attitude towards them, especially if their rudeness continues.
> You have interesting ideas about Missouri, as an alternative to what happened in canon (Azazel killing Mary).
It's intriguing that Kripke chose Azazel as the demon who killed Mary. I found it interesting from the point of view of the psychological reading of Supernatural when I discovered that the name means "scapegoat".
If you're interested in this aspect, you might like to watch the interview where Kripke talks about the influence of his favourite Buffy episode, "Normal Again", which is the one that explores the possibility that the entire plot of the previous six seasons was a delusional fantasy Buffy was trapped in whilst a patient of a mental institution in L. A. I think it's on the season 5 special features. If you don't have the DVD I'll see if I can dig up a link for you.
Thanks for your review. I really like your idea of Missouri as a member of Azazel's team. I immediately remembered in subsequent seasons how there were demons on the university campus that track Sam. Why shouldn't Missouri be the same demon. She always annoyed me with her attitude towards Dean. The main thing is that it was absolutely unreasonable. Dean didn't act badly enough to be treated like that. That's why I don't like Missouri and I don't like this episod. I want to punch her in the head so she doesn't treat Dean like that. She pretends to guess their names, but it was actually John who told her. She says that there is no ghost in the house, but there is one. By doing so, she puts the boys in danger. No, I don't like her at all ))
I still love the episode for the brother development, despite Missouri. But I do find it interesting to speculate where Kripke might have gone with the character if he'd had the opportunity. Like you, I thought of the demons that dogged Sam's childhood, and whether she might have been the first among them.
Thanks so much for your comment. I really appreciate your support of this series.
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You've been more generous with the later seasons than I've been. I can only actually consider the first 5 season canon. They told a complete story that made perfect sense. Season 6 and parts of 7 still felt like 'show' to me because I think Sera Gamble was genuinely trying to keep up Kripke's legacy, but I think she started losing control of the writing team soon after his departure. Everything from S8 onward I regard as professional fan fiction at best.
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I do think from a characterization and (mostly) a lore standpoint, s12 is where things started getting significantly dodgy; the start of s8 aside, for me Carter's run held together relatively well with the Kripke/Gamble era, with s11 as a second season-long highpoint after s2. (But then, I've always been a MotW kind of gal....)
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Making Missouri a hunter in the layer episode doesn't really make sense. Getting pregnant to pass on her psychic abilities sure, but that doesn't fit with her being one of Azazel's team. I don't know what to think.
I just think the later episodes are bad writing, possibly because the writers didn't know the backstory in the show.
Thanks for these new insights!
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Thanks so much for all your wonderful comments :)))
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Yes, the episode stands up well as a creepy MoTW as well as a myth arc episode and, as you say, the John reveal at the end is an iconic moment. It's one of my favourite all time episodes.
I'm so glad you liked the recap. Many thanks for reading and commenting. I really appreciate your support.
Reply
I think Missouri was reacting to Dean giving her attitude. Starting off with him saying since she's a psychic, she should know where his dad is. After that, she also reacted to rude things that he was thinking (wanting to put his feet on the table, for example.) Later on, when she says he isn't the sharpest tool in the shed, she's referring to Dean being insensitive to Jenny's feelings. So, I see it as specific to that moment, not necessarily a description of Dean being dumb in general. But yes, she does pick on him quite a bit, like saying he was a goofy looking kid. But I think it's just Missouri's personality... if a person doesn't get on her good side and isn't respectul to her, then she'll continue to have an attitude towards them, especially if their rudeness continues.
Reply
It's intriguing that Kripke chose Azazel as the demon who killed Mary. I found it interesting from the point of view of the psychological reading of Supernatural when I discovered that the name means "scapegoat".
If you're interested in this aspect, you might like to watch the interview where Kripke talks about the influence of his favourite Buffy episode, "Normal Again", which is the one that explores the possibility that the entire plot of the previous six seasons was a delusional fantasy Buffy was trapped in whilst a patient of a mental institution in L. A. I think it's on the season 5 special features. If you don't have the DVD I'll see if I can dig up a link for you.
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Thanks so much for your comment. I really appreciate your support of this series.
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