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Comments 18

tejas December 18 2007, 02:22:37 UTC
Passive modal perfect, if I'm reading this properly. I don't recall ever studying modals at all.

http://www.englishpage.com/modals/modalforms.html

And thanks. "Should of" always annoys me to distraction.

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whimsicalwhims December 18 2007, 02:52:09 UTC
Hmm... "Passive modal perfect" sounds off to me, as by its very nature, the perfect tense (have + -en) is passive. I would probably refer to it as a "past perfect modal." Here, past refers to the tense and perfect refers to the aspect.

On their own, modals are tenseless, and the perfect aspect has to be added in order to refer to the past.

::shrugs:: I'd dig out my class notes, but they all have been tossed together in a box, and I'm far too lazy.

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tejas December 18 2007, 02:59:31 UTC
If you do stumble on your class notes, I'd love to know for sure. I've just been digging around online looking for it.

Sheesh. I'm such a geek. :-)

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whimsicalwhims December 18 2007, 03:22:51 UTC
Okay, I pulled them out, and apparently I am not as disorganized as I thought, because I found the day my grammar professor discussed modals. A quick caveat: While I took a class on grammar, it is not my area of expertise.

At the top of my page, I wrote the words "modal = tenseless." Further down the page, I circled "perfect aspect = prior to; gives the idea that it happened before now."

Unfortunately, I don't have an exact term to describe the example should have + -en. However, I believe that I have to amend my previous comment, and take out the "past." Calling it a Modal + Perfect Aspect would probably be okay.

(And if anyone out there has a MA or PhD in grammar, feel free to jump in here!)

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callistosh65 December 18 2007, 13:15:31 UTC
The Fan Grammarians, for all their talents, have not been able to find a definitive phrase to describe this tense.

should + perfect infinitive - to show that we expected smth to happen in the past, but we don't know if it happened or not. ex: Tom should have passed his exams.(We often use it to express negatives, to say that smth didn't happen)

(as a by the by, my students tend to learn it as 'should have + verb 3'- see above note.*g*, they say it makes more sense to them like that:))

So, where does this fit? When we teach it, we explain that it's "past", ( the present is should + infinitve ( without 'to') ex: Tom should pass his exams. Which is used to show that smth is probable now or in the future.

Okay, I'm wandering off to ponder some more before I muddy the waters completely...*g*

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lady_ganesh December 19 2007, 02:38:07 UTC
Hahah, I dunno. I kind of like Verb 3, too!

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*dons mod hat* melayneseahawk December 18 2007, 13:42:49 UTC
*poke* This was supposed to be posted to the fandom_grammar comm yesterday...

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Re: *dons mod hat* theemdash December 18 2007, 14:40:29 UTC
Technically it was.

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Re: *dons mod hat* melayneseahawk December 18 2007, 14:41:38 UTC
Wow, I need more sleep. It was just the title that threw me off. *headdesk*

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Re: *dons mod hat* lady_ganesh December 19 2007, 02:37:09 UTC
Yeah, sorry about that!

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theemdash December 18 2007, 14:39:49 UTC
Psst. Change "beta" in your subject header to "Answer".

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melayneseahawk December 18 2007, 14:42:00 UTC
Yeah, that's what messed me up. Sorry.

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theemdash December 18 2007, 15:06:17 UTC
It confused me, too, but I was like, Wait, lady_ganesh is smarter than that. ;)

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lady_ganesh December 19 2007, 00:05:45 UTC
DAMN YOU COPY AND PASTE. Fixed.

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