(1) Maybe Angel did have sex with her. Why not? My interpretation of his problem is that it it isn't orgasm that causes the soul-change but the combination of orgasm with true love. So it wouldn't trigger the change whatever he does with Faith to convince her.
Okay, the 'why not' there might be fidelity issues with Buffy, but I suspect he's way more pragmatic than that. And that, given the Armageddon-like stakes in the matter, she would agree it was the right thing for him to do.
(2) Alternately, I think Faith is gullible and not nearly as smart as she thinks she is. She doesn't understand hoe good people think and act; she just can't figure it out. This makes her fairly easy to manipulate, as long as she doesn't know she's being manipulated, or misunderstands the motives.
I love this episode - I completely agree about the pacing and nuance and the way they play with all the characters and what we know about them.
Angel and Buffy accidentally going to see a sex movie
I like Angel's line: "It's been awhile since I've been to the movies. They've changed."
You made an interesting comment about it being more diffcult for Buffy than Angel. That's not something I'd considered before but it makes sense, and fits in with the way I've always kind of seen this episode as the beginning of the end for their relationship.
First, Buffy has met some mild-mannered demons who turned out to be pretty nasty - is she really such a good judge of demon character to be sure this goofball isn't acting? Second, don't we have plenty of reason to believe that demons do not necessarily resembled each other at all, for good or for bad, and are far from being equally good or dangerous?I'm not sure I get what you don't understand there - I think Buffy is being pragmatic and wants the information. She can always kill him later
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Re: 1 of ...fajrdrakoNovember 22 2008, 16:34:47 UTC
That's not something I'd considered before but it makes sense, and fits in with the way I've always kind of seen this episode as the beginning of the end for their relationship.
Sniff. I don't like the end of the relationship. I wanted them to manage to be together somehow. Sort of like Mal and Inara. How is it that Joss manages to create these totally impossible romantic relationships?
I think Buffy is being pragmatic and wants the information.
Yeah. Demons come in all types. I don't understand what the Buffy mythology definition of a 'demon' is.
I liked Giles asking if he got a receipt when Xander wanted to be reimbursed.
Giles has some of the best lines ever.
I wouldn't have said Buffy was even partly responsive to Faith - she doesn't want Faith touching her and she is very aloof.
But she lets Faith go with her.
I always thought that was what Xander meant.
Yes. I think Xander was responding to Buffy's lack of friendliness with Faith, while what I was reacting to was the cooperation.
The Mage chants. Angel transforms. He kisses Faith. Worse and worse! Okay, so I didn't believe it, but I wasn't sure what or where the scam was.
See, the very first time I saw this, I did believe it!
Angel's "bad to the bone" dialogue is wonderful.
I always liked "No, really. Don't get up." when he kicks her. And I like the sense that Faith wasn't quite ready for Angelus (even pretend Angelus) because she's only seen sweet Angel.
Angel: As long as you're there, I mostly want you to wriggle
Heee. They get away with a surprising amount in Buffy sometimes. Wait until you see some of the hand gestures in Hush.
Does Giles at this point know what's going on? Has the Mage already spoken to him? The next time we see Buffy, she knows what's going on, even though we don't know she knows. But the timeline isn't entirely clearI've always assumed he and Buffy have the plan all sorted at that point and that is what the "Be careful" line and the look between them at the end of the scene is about. The way I think it went is Buffy went to
( ... )
I like the sense that Faith wasn't quite ready for Angelus (even pretend Angelus) because she's only seen sweet Angel.
I like that too. There are so many levels (some real, some pretend) that Faith didn't understand about the situation.
I agree with your interpretation of the sequence of events.
I like Angel pegging the Mayor's aversion to germs and the expression on his face when he talks about torturing, maiming and killing Buffy.
Brilliant scene. My favourite of the Mayor's scenes, I think. Mostly we see him with lightweights, or people with a vested interest in flattering him. Angel remains himself.
Either that or it's a comment on her and "Angelus" being an item.
Yes. I think he likes the results of their schemes.
I think strength in numbers is the way to go." I'm not even sure what she means - does she expect Buffy to think she's hesitant to face Giles alone
Strength in numbers in case they are attacked by the Mayor's guys on the way, I think is the idea, not that Faith doesn't want to see Giles alone.
Good Angel line to Buffy: "You know, I never properly thanked you for sending me to hell."
Great acting on Sarah Michelle Geller's part when she says, "No."
I adore that whole scene. Especially Angel taunting Buffy with the idea that "Maybe there's still some good, deep down inside of me, that still remembers, and loves you". Proper Angelus nasty there.
"You know how some people hate to say I told you so? Not me. I told you so." Some writers and some episodes make Xander less obnoxious than others. This is pretty close to Xander at his worst. He's practically crowing about being right about something that would break Buffy's heart, if it were realArgh, yes. Much dislike of Xander there - and the fact that no-one even questions why Angel
( ... )
Strength in numbers in case they are attacked by the Mayor's guys on the way
Right. That makes sense.
Especially Angel taunting Buffy with the idea that "Maybe there's still some good, deep down inside of me, that still remembers, and loves you". Proper Angelus nasty there.
Yes, beautifully. Especially since we know after the fact that he's reminding her that he is good, and loves her. It works on several levels. He might even be hinting that he loved her even at his most evil, as I think he did, because of his sense of obsession over her.
Much dislike of Xander there - and the fact that no-one even questions why Angel didn't simply kill him if he'd gone bad again.
Yup. Xander should count himself lucky.
on rewatches I can see Buffy's comments about Faith not wanting to do this as her testing to see how far gone Faith really was rather than trying to save her own life, which is fun.
I think so.
I like Faith's fury and shock at being played as well - I don't think she ever thought that Buffy or Angel could deceive like that
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(1) Maybe Angel did have sex with her. Why not? My interpretation of his problem is that it it isn't orgasm that causes the soul-change but the combination of orgasm with true love. So it wouldn't trigger the change whatever he does with Faith to convince her.
Okay, the 'why not' there might be fidelity issues with Buffy, but I suspect he's way more pragmatic than that. And that, given the Armageddon-like stakes in the matter, she would agree it was the right thing for him to do.
(2) Alternately, I think Faith is gullible and not nearly as smart as she thinks she is. She doesn't understand hoe good people think and act; she just can't figure it out. This makes her fairly easy to manipulate, as long as she doesn't know she's being manipulated, or misunderstands the motives.
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2. Under the Joss equation of sex=evil, Faith should have realised Angelus isn't around if he didn't go for it.
Oh well. Let that be the smallest problem of any show, huh.
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Angel and Buffy accidentally going to see a sex movie
I like Angel's line: "It's been awhile since I've been to the movies. They've changed."
You made an interesting comment about it being more diffcult for Buffy than Angel. That's not something I'd considered before but it makes sense, and fits in with the way I've always kind of seen this episode as the beginning of the end for their relationship.
First, Buffy has met some mild-mannered demons who turned out to be pretty nasty - is she really such a good judge of demon character to be sure this goofball isn't acting? Second, don't we have plenty of reason to believe that demons do not necessarily resembled each other at all, for good or for bad, and are far from being equally good or dangerous?I'm not sure I get what you don't understand there - I think Buffy is being pragmatic and wants the information. She can always kill him later ( ... )
Reply
Sniff. I don't like the end of the relationship. I wanted them to manage to be together somehow. Sort of like Mal and Inara. How is it that Joss manages to create these totally impossible romantic relationships?
I think Buffy is being pragmatic and wants the information.
Yeah. Demons come in all types. I don't understand what the Buffy mythology definition of a 'demon' is.
I liked Giles asking if he got a receipt when Xander wanted to be reimbursed.
Giles has some of the best lines ever.
I wouldn't have said Buffy was even partly responsive to Faith - she doesn't want Faith touching her and she is very aloof.
But she lets Faith go with her.
I always thought that was what Xander meant.
Yes. I think Xander was responding to Buffy's lack of friendliness with Faith, while what I was reacting to was the cooperation.
"I too know the love of a taciturn ( ... )
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See, the very first time I saw this, I did believe it!
Angel's "bad to the bone" dialogue is wonderful.
I always liked "No, really. Don't get up." when he kicks her. And I like the sense that Faith wasn't quite ready for Angelus (even pretend Angelus) because she's only seen sweet Angel.
Angel: As long as you're there, I mostly want you to wriggle
Heee. They get away with a surprising amount in Buffy sometimes. Wait until you see some of the hand gestures in Hush.
Does Giles at this point know what's going on? Has the Mage already spoken to him? The next time we see Buffy, she knows what's going on, even though we don't know she knows. But the timeline isn't entirely clearI've always assumed he and Buffy have the plan all sorted at that point and that is what the "Be careful" line and the look between them at the end of the scene is about. The way I think it went is Buffy went to ( ... )
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Woo, scary!
I like the sense that Faith wasn't quite ready for Angelus (even pretend Angelus) because she's only seen sweet Angel.
I like that too. There are so many levels (some real, some pretend) that Faith didn't understand about the situation.
I agree with your interpretation of the sequence of events.
I like Angel pegging the Mayor's aversion to germs and the expression on his face when he talks about torturing, maiming and killing Buffy.
Brilliant scene. My favourite of the Mayor's scenes, I think. Mostly we see him with lightweights, or people with a vested interest in flattering him. Angel remains himself.
Either that or it's a comment on her and "Angelus" being an item.
Yes. I think he likes the results of their schemes.
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Strength in numbers in case they are attacked by the Mayor's guys on the way, I think is the idea, not that Faith doesn't want to see Giles alone.
Good Angel line to Buffy: "You know, I never properly thanked you for sending me to hell."
Great acting on Sarah Michelle Geller's part when she says, "No."
I adore that whole scene. Especially Angel taunting Buffy with the idea that "Maybe there's still some good, deep down inside of me, that still remembers, and loves you". Proper Angelus nasty there.
"You know how some people hate to say I told you so? Not me. I told you so." Some writers and some episodes make Xander less obnoxious than others. This is pretty close to Xander at his worst. He's practically crowing about being right about something that would break Buffy's heart, if it were realArgh, yes. Much dislike of Xander there - and the fact that no-one even questions why Angel ( ... )
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Right. That makes sense.
Especially Angel taunting Buffy with the idea that "Maybe there's still some good, deep down inside of me, that still remembers, and loves you". Proper Angelus nasty there.
Yes, beautifully. Especially since we know after the fact that he's reminding her that he is good, and loves her. It works on several levels. He might even be hinting that he loved her even at his most evil, as I think he did, because of his sense of obsession over her.
Much dislike of Xander there - and the fact that no-one even questions why Angel didn't simply kill him if he'd gone bad again.
Yup. Xander should count himself lucky.
on rewatches I can see Buffy's comments about Faith not wanting to do this as her testing to see how far gone Faith really was rather than trying to save her own life, which is fun.
I think so.
I like Faith's fury and shock at being played as well - I don't think she ever thought that Buffy or Angel could deceive like that ( ... )
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It's funny, but I can never see it like that. For me, it's always such a cruel line - I think because it references an exchange she had with Angelus:
Buffy: Angel... there must be some part of you inside that remembers who you are.
Angelus: Dream on, schoolgirl. Your boyfriend is dead.
So I can see how it could work as reassurance - but when I watch it, it comes off as a kick in the teeth.
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Maybe that's how she took it. Maybe that's why she backed off, later.
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http://www.thesun.co.uk/sol/homepage/showbiz/tv/article1933925.ece
Cause he always makes me think of you ;)
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He'd be good in the role.
Though I might rather see movies about Captain Jack Harkness. A really well-written, high-tech thing... Nice idea.
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