You're welcome! This has been building since my earliest days in SW fandom, pretty much, but tumblr pretty much pushed me over the edge. Sometimes the child really is the father of the man! (Or at least the uncle.)
Oh, it's that I'm spending more time there atm, even though I don't much like it (I go where my fandoms go!). Because of the whole reblogging/tag-following structure, it's a bit easier to follow and participate in more than one fandom at a time, and I end up following lots of discussions that I'm not participating in, that are happening outside my own fannish circle. End result is that I see a lot of anti-woobie rants and "well, it's okay if you like him as long as you do it the way I think you should" and "why do fans of the character just talk about the things they like about him???" across all of my fandoms, even Shakespeare and Austen.
The particular conversation was about Tarrlok and Amon from LOK, and how their horrific childhood didn't make them who they are as adults, which ... uh, yes, it did? (It's made worse because it's quasi-canon that the particular form their abuse took opens people up to homicidal madness, and it began when they were around nine and six.) But that was really the last straw.
Oh God, your stories here make me so angry with the people who dick about with these kids' lives like that, SERIOUSLY WHAT THE HELL WORLD.
:(
I'd suggest that female characters are woobified less for two reasons: firstly, popular culture values men's pain more. That leads to secondly, women's pain is judged, not sympathised with. She deserved it, she asked for it, she didn't love him enough, she provoked him, she's a bitch anyway so who cares?
But I confess I have a slightly different perspective on the woobie-thing (as a card-carrying member of the anti-woobification brigade, at least in regards to certain characters...) in general, perhaps because of the specific type of character that I see being woobified most often in fandom. Obviously I don't have extensive experience of woobification for every character in every fandom ever, so this is a really personal statement based on my own selective reading.
Specifically: The kind of things that are easily dismissed as “another rough childhood” can damage people. It can damage people
( ... )
The foster-care system is a nightmare. An extremely underfunded nightmare, even.
I do agree that a large part of it is valuing and dismissing women's pain, but I also think that a lot of the dismissive remarks about woobies tend to be up to their eyebrows in nasty stoic masculinity tropes. (The dudebro OT fans are excellent examples, I feel. I have as many issues with the PT as anyone, but I don't have a lot of patience for 'I can't believe they made Vader weak! RUINED FOREVER.')
But the characters who are woobified (that is to say, the characters I see being woobified) in fandom are not in that position.See, I'd disagree. Sort of - as I'm only really familiar with two of those examples. There is a wide, wide range between 'too damaged to bear any responsibility for their actions' and 'no longer damaged in any way at all.' What I see most often in real life, and what I see in plenty of woobie characters, are people somewhere in between
( ... )
I also think that a lot of the dismissive remarks about woobies tend to be up to their eyebrows in nasty stoic masculinity tropes. (The dudebro OT fans are excellent examples, I feel. I have as many issues with the PT as anyone, but I don't have a lot of patience for 'I can't believe they made Vader weak! RUINED FOREVER.')
Agreed, completely. This perspective is something that... in the hands of a good writer, this is the perspective that can sometimes make me appreciate a 'woobifying' treatment of a character, because it gives a male character who is, as you point out, Not Supposed To Have Feelings, emotions, and problems stemming from those emotions, and undermines that masculinity trope in that way.
There is a wide, wide range between 'too damaged to bear any responsibility for their actions' and 'no longer damaged in any way at all.' What I see most often in real life, and what I see in plenty of woobie characters, are people somewhere in between.Again, I absolutely agree. And I expect this is where it comes back down to
( ... )
in the hands of a good writer, this is the perspective that can sometimes make me appreciate a 'woobifying' treatment of a character, because it gives a male character who is, as you point out, Not Supposed To Have Feelings, emotions, and problems stemming from those emotions, and undermines that masculinity trope in that way.
Yeah. I think, for me, the difference is that woobification doesn't have to be particularly well-done for me to get some measure of satisfaction out of it. I care much more about doing-it-right as a writer than a reader.
Re: taking responsibility -
I think it is important to take responsibility for, well, what you're responsible for. But - not knowing the character at all (beyond tumblr gifs, anyway) I also think there's this pretty vast grey area between refusing to take responsibility for your actions at all and holding yourself to standards you can't reasonably meet. It's something I struggle with constantly in my personal life, both with trauma and disability
( ... )
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The particular conversation was about Tarrlok and Amon from LOK, and how their horrific childhood didn't make them who they are as adults, which ... uh, yes, it did? (It's made worse because it's quasi-canon that the particular form their abuse took opens people up to homicidal madness, and it began when they were around nine and six.) But that was really the last straw.
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:(
I'd suggest that female characters are woobified less for two reasons: firstly, popular culture values men's pain more. That leads to secondly, women's pain is judged, not sympathised with. She deserved it, she asked for it, she didn't love him enough, she provoked him, she's a bitch anyway so who cares?
But I confess I have a slightly different perspective on the woobie-thing (as a card-carrying member of the anti-woobification brigade, at least in regards to certain characters...) in general, perhaps because of the specific type of character that I see being woobified most often in fandom. Obviously I don't have extensive experience of woobification for every character in every fandom ever, so this is a really personal statement based on my own selective reading.
Specifically: The kind of things that are easily dismissed as “another rough childhood” can damage people. It can damage people ( ... )
Reply
I do agree that a large part of it is valuing and dismissing women's pain, but I also think that a lot of the dismissive remarks about woobies tend to be up to their eyebrows in nasty stoic masculinity tropes. (The dudebro OT fans are excellent examples, I feel. I have as many issues with the PT as anyone, but I don't have a lot of patience for 'I can't believe they made Vader weak! RUINED FOREVER.')
But the characters who are woobified (that is to say, the characters I see being woobified) in fandom are not in that position.See, I'd disagree. Sort of - as I'm only really familiar with two of those examples. There is a wide, wide range between 'too damaged to bear any responsibility for their actions' and 'no longer damaged in any way at all.' What I see most often in real life, and what I see in plenty of woobie characters, are people somewhere in between ( ... )
Reply
Agreed, completely. This perspective is something that... in the hands of a good writer, this is the perspective that can sometimes make me appreciate a 'woobifying' treatment of a character, because it gives a male character who is, as you point out, Not Supposed To Have Feelings, emotions, and problems stemming from those emotions, and undermines that masculinity trope in that way.
There is a wide, wide range between 'too damaged to bear any responsibility for their actions' and 'no longer damaged in any way at all.' What I see most often in real life, and what I see in plenty of woobie characters, are people somewhere in between.Again, I absolutely agree. And I expect this is where it comes back down to ( ... )
Reply
Yeah. I think, for me, the difference is that woobification doesn't have to be particularly well-done for me to get some measure of satisfaction out of it. I care much more about doing-it-right as a writer than a reader.
Re: taking responsibility -
I think it is important to take responsibility for, well, what you're responsible for. But - not knowing the character at all (beyond tumblr gifs, anyway) I also think there's this pretty vast grey area between refusing to take responsibility for your actions at all and holding yourself to standards you can't reasonably meet. It's something I struggle with constantly in my personal life, both with trauma and disability ( ... )
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