The Time Lord Victorious, from WoM onwards.

[elisi]

So, I do NOT have time to write this, but it suddenly attacked me and demanded to be written down.

First of all, however, re-posting something I wrote in a comment in a previous post. It's essentially 'Rusty Who in 25 words' I guess. *coughs discreetly*

EVERYONE IS A MONSTER, EVEN THE DOCTOR. EXCEPT HE IS WONDERFUL, BECAUSE HE'S THE HERO. [error

Comments

[solitary_summer]

I can't really comment coherently because I'm still thinking my way through all this myself, but...

because he would rather keep the Master than save the Earth

I think at this point it's rather that he's simply afraid of becoming the next Master himself. ('That's how the Master started') He knows he already fucked up badly once, and he's just doesn't trust himself any longer. I don't think of the Time Lord Victorious as something alien that had to be exorcised but as an experience that Ten couldn't unlearn, however much he might have wanted to, that had become part of him.

Ten's last line... I think part of it is that RTD doesn't like for his characters to go in despair, to give them the comparatively easy way out of a glorified suicide, or risk having their deaths misunderstood as that. If you look at Jack in MD -- he was only allowed to make the decision to die after he'd realised he didn't want to after all, and after getting a good look at his life and appreciating it. And even then it was Gwen who made the decision in the

[elisi]

I can't really comment coherently because I'm still thinking my way through all this myself, but...
You and me both! (I was so pleased when I saw you'd commented, because I know this is stuff you're thinking about too.)

I think at this point it's rather that he's simply afraid of becoming the next Master himself. ('That's how the Master started') He knows he already fucked up badly once, and he's just doesn't trust himself any longer.
Yes and no. I understand the 'not trusting himself', but still the *objectively* right thing to do was to kill the Master and save the Earth, no matter the consequences to himself. (Like Jack in CoE - Jack did the right thing, although it also made him a monster.) Being fearful of being a monster in the Master's mould is... well, a little late in the day? He's trying to shut the door after the horse has bolted...

I don't think of the Time Lord Victorious as something alien that had to be exorcised but as an experience that Ten couldn't unlearn, however much he might have wanted to, that had become

[sensiblecat]

I see it somewhat differently - that Ten's character arc concerns the Doctor's failed attempt to become human, or at least to "pass" as human. That is a neurotic reaction to the overwhelming horror of what he had to do to end the Time War. He immerses himself in his relationship with Rose as a denial of his own identity as a Time Lord, until be the start of AoG he's virtually welcomed as a son-in-law by Jackie, but the relationship has a brittle quality that is ultimately unsustainable. After he loses Rose, I think it's signifiant that he first names Gallifrey in TRB - and Rusty gave huge prominence to the role of the companion as "someone to stop you." (Contrast this with Amy's role, which is far more to look after the Doctor when he 'doesn't know what he's doing

[elisi]

I see it somewhat differently - that Ten's character arc concerns the Doctor's failed attempt to become human, or at least to "pass" as human.
Oh absolutely. Hence me adding that this is only *one* layer. (I like my layers.) And I have written lots on the subject of Ten Wanted To Be Human... Maybe the Victoriousness came about partly as a reaction against this? Because he tried to suppress his real nature?

Anyway, I'm off to bed, so will get to the rest of your comment tomorrow sometime, although I think I agree with most of it. :)

ETA: Don't have a lot to add. Loved your meta on the subject of Ten Wanting To Be Human (and wrote my own).

I also feel that everything in the specials needs to be seen through the distorting mirror of Rusty's Tennant worship and the fact that he found the chance of giving DT something to emote about was irresistable, even when it should have been resisted on aesthetic grounds. *snickers* Um, this. Although I understand the impulse. Very, very few people can angst as beautifully as DT - like Alexis

[anonymous]

Ten got *very* messed up in the head, it has to be said. He tried to be so many different things that he wasn't meant to be that he didn't know what he was anymore, and he was constantly seeking approval from his companions, (i.e. "Look at me! Look at me!") And then, by the time he's Eleven, he suddenly knows who he is: Gandalf. Sort of a Space Gandalf. Or the little green guy from Star Wars. Woooom!

One thing I always thought was interesting was the fact that Ten seemed okay with dying on many occasions. In fact, during The Next Doctor, he seemed rather fascinated by his 'future' incarnation, and seemed rather hopeful for some banter, (i.e. "Not as young as you were when you were me!")

~ srmcd1

[elisi]

And then, by the time he's Eleven, he suddenly knows who he is: Gandalf.
I've been meaning to talk to you about 'Shattered'. It's a lovely vid (and I'd love a download), but the thing that just slayed were the final two clips - they just PERFECTLY encapsulated Ten and Eleven to such a degree that I'm still flailing... Ten being taken up to 'heaven' by angels (utterly absorbed in what's above etc.) and Eleven looking after him, and then turning his eyes back down to earth, and towards the TARDIS. Acknowledging who he was, but utterly content with who he is now. If you could turn that into a gif I would be... incoherent with happiness, because it says what I've spent thousands of words trying to explain.

One thing I always thought was interesting was the fact that Ten seemed okay with dying on many occasions. In fact, during The Next Doctor, he seemed rather fascinated by his 'future' incarnation, and seemed rather hopeful for some banter, (i.e. "Not as young as you were when you were me!")This - I think it's the fact that it gets

[a_phoenixdragon]

I.

Love.

You.

All of you actually. This...this whole meta and the comments supporting and clarifying and hashing out ideas and thoughts on said meta. Just...wow. It is helping me to remember and understand aspects of those episodes that my brain had struggled with and rejected before. Just beautiful.

Thank you...

[elisi]

BLESS YOU! ♥

All of you actually. This...this whole meta and the comments supporting and clarifying and hashing out ideas and thoughts on said meta. Just...wow.
It's what I (we) do. My humble abode regularly transforms int a meta cafe. :)

(I also feel that I've slightly mis-represented my thoughts here, because of only looking through ONE filter. This post is the best one I've ever read on Ten's final moments, and what his last words meant.

[a_phoenixdragon]

I shoulda been hanging out here for the last few YEARS. Maybe then the thinky would have rubbed off on my proper. Instead of just being left to linger in fanfic that no one sane should read, lol!!

Mmmm!! Thank you!! I'll be sure to check that out!! So many ways of seeing the Doctor, so many, many filters! A year could be spent on ONE EPPIE. *Nods*

*SMISHES*

[elisi]

I shoulda been hanging out here for the last few YEARS.
Yes. Yes you should. My LJ can always do with more awesome people. :)

Maybe then the thinky would have rubbed off on my proper. Instead of just being left to linger in fanfic that no one sane should read, lol!!
You say that as if it's a bad thing... ;)

Mmmm!! Thank you!! I'll be sure to check that out!! So many ways of seeing the Doctor, so many, many filters! A year could be spent on ONE EPPIE. *Nods*
Oh yes. Layer after layer after layer. Mmmm meta.

[topaz_eyes]

The main complaint I've heard re. WoM is that it never went anywhere - Ten went all 'The Laws of Time Are MINE!' but then 'snapped out of it'. My question is - did he?

How could people take Ten's rant at Wilf as anything but the Time Lord Victorious re-emerging?

I think we can interpret this quote another way:

Wilf: But I’ve heard you talk about your people like they’re wonderful!
The Doctor: That’s how I choose to remember them! The Time Lords of old. But then they went to war! And endless war! And it changed them. Right to the core. You’ve seen my enemies, Wilf. The Time Lords are more dangerous than any of them! (bolding mine

[elisi]

How could people take Ten's rant at Wilf as anything but the Time Lord Victorious re-emerging?
I'm not sure, but just from what I've observed people saying, obviously some people don't find it a straightforward connection. (Half the time when I write meta, I feel like I'm stating Obvious Truths, and everyone is just going to roll their eyes...)

Ten's describing himself here too.
That is, actually, exactly what I was trying to say with that quote - if the was changed them, surely it changed him too. He can only really see it/acknowledge it when it's external (TenToo, the other Time Lords), but yes, it's very very much about himself. I've written before about how, as the Last Time Lord, what a Time Lord *is*, is up to him... Not just the memory of those who died, but who *he* is. (Love how this is addressed in AGMGTW - 'Why would a Time Lord be a weapon?'/'Well... they've seen you'.) But I think I'm rambling?

Except Wilf, the wise old man almost at the end of his life, ready to sacrifice himself, embodying the essence of the Doctor.

[sensiblecat]

Generally I'm with this meta, talking about how it's mostly regret he feels [over a - partly - misspent life] and how Eleven is the answer to this: Someone who lives fully.

Yes, that's so true, isn't it? You get the feeling that in between what we see of Eleven with Amy and Rory (and even River) there are vast swathes of adventures rather like the ones hinted at at the very start of Impossible Astronaut. You can never think of Ten alone without worrying about him, but Eleven will be popping up under some lady's skirt, or fixing up a child's dream bedroom somewhere.

[elisi]

there are vast swathes of adventures rather like the ones hinted at at the very start of Impossible Astronaut.
A whole 200 years... It's like an endless license for writing FitBs! :)

[promethia_tenk]

Have just realized why I have basically nothing to say to this or your other post, which is:

So, thoughts about Victoriousness under the cut. The main complaint I've heard re. WoM is that it never went anywhere - Ten went all 'The Laws of Time Are MINE!' but then 'snapped out of it'. My question is - did he?

Wait, what, people think that?

But I usually have to lump all of Ten into one bin labeled "Ten" and The Christmas Invasion doesn't look that fundamentally different from Waters of Mars or EoT or anything else along the way. And I'll admit sometimes you start talking RTD with other RTD people and my brain goes la la la and imagines little Adipose dancing through the streets and Gwen blowing things up. Not the Adipose. Those images are separate.

It's also possible that it is Monday and I am tired and a milkshake and wine does not actually count as dinner . . .

[promethia_tenk]

Though now Gwen is blowing things up and the Adipose are standing around her ankles going eeeeeee and grinning little toothy grins and big eyes and little jumpy waves and trying to touch the explosions.

I would pay good money to see this.

Milkshake and wine definitely does not count as dinner.

[elisi]

Though now Gwen is blowing things up and the Adipose are standing around her ankles going eeeeeee and grinning little toothy grins and big eyes and little jumpy waves and trying to touch the explosions.
THAT IS WHAT MD NEEDED!!!! Damn. Would have made more sense too.

Milkshake and wine definitely does not count as dinner.
No. But it sounds good. :)

[promethia_tenk]

THAT IS WHAT MD NEEDED!!!! Damn. Would have made more sense too.
Adipose might not actually be the cure for all ailments, but it sure don't hurt to try. GET WITH THE PROGRAM, RUSTY.

No. But it sounds good. :)
And it was *g*