I don't because I would have like to have some idea of how they got to that point and it sort of frustrates me we have no idea what happen realy.
I do because they are both strong characters who would have a lot of understanding of what they've each been through. And more than anything, I could see them supporting each other through any and everything. Certainly doesn't hurt that they're both attractive.
I tend to follow canon ships and make them work in my head, so I guess you could say I ship it. And really, there are some arguments for it. Traveling with the Doctor changes your perception of the world, so they would have that much in common; they would share the same definition of "weird," for instance. (Which would definitely be refreshing, because imagine trying to explain to a civilian that as far as you're concerned, technicolor squid floating in the sky isn't weird, it's just aliens. If they started singing showtunes or something, that might be weird.)
Also, there's the family dynamic. Mickey has always struck me as a fairly low-drama person on a day-to-day level. Martha comes from an extremely high-drama family, and I get the impression that she was required to be "the sensible one" as often as not. It might be very pleasant and restful to be with someone mellow, someone you can relax around and not have to play any sort of role. I could believe she found that in Mickey.
That being said, I think that the execution
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There's the added issue that they're the only two black major characters, and while that does give them additional common ground, it would be problematic to pair them off automatically because they're both black-not that I think that was what RTD meant to do, but if you didn't see any build-up between them (which I didn't), it can kind of feel that way. Problematic how?
Er. You know, now that I come to try to articulate it, I'm having trouble finding the words. I guess I've seen shows where seems subliminally clear that a black woman isn't even a possible love interest for the (typically white, of course) hero, simply because she's black, and if she later gets matched up with a black man, it can feel sort of like a . . . I dunno, consolation prize? Like, "Of course you can't have the real leading man, that would just be silly; take this one instead." People deserve better than being other peoples' consolation prizes.
I also remember high school, where black boys who dated white girls were frequently resented for "stealing" them, and white boys who dated black girls were regarded with a certain amount of confusion, as if no-one could understand why they'd want to. One of the things I always liked about Rose's introduction was that she was dating Mickey, and it wasn't supposed to be a big deal that he was black and she wasn't. He wasn't stealing her, she wasn't slumming, he wasn't getting away
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While I do agree that there wasn't much build-up to a Martha/Mickey relationship, I knew about it well before watching that episode. (I was a year or two behind at that point.) So knowing ahead of time helped me appreciate it. And really, there are so many ways that they could be good for each other, so I ship it like mad.
what are some reasons that Mickey and Martha would fall in love that have nothing to do with past relationships with the Doctor and Rose?Y'know, it's really hard to separate that out. They both learned weird new skills thanks to being around the Doctor. They both know the sting of being overlooked/underappreciated. They've undergone major changes in life situations because they've traveled through time and space
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what are some reasons that Mickey and Martha would fall in love that have nothing to do with past relationships with the Doctor and Rose? Y'know, it's really hard to separate that out. May I ask why it seems hard to separate Martha and Mickey's attraction to each from the past relationships with Doctor and Rose? Do you mean seperate it as in, they have to share their sexual history, or something else?
I was thinking of how both Martha and Mickey were so changed by their experiences with the Doctor and Rose. They were different people after their time in the TARDIS. If they had met before, I could see them being attracted, but not suiting each other at all.
But it's not about the romance angle of it, just about how traveling with the Doctor transforms people.
Fascinating. I'm writing a fiction write now where Mickey meets Martha while Rose is away, and they do fine common ground--(SyFy) and fall in love. But they move in very different spheres. Martha at UNI then at the teaching Hospital.
Traveling with the Doctor would change anyone--and I quite can't see Martha with goofy Mickey of the first shows. There is a marvelous interview with Noel when he talks about how much he disliked those first few performances.
I have such mixed feelings about the Martha/Mickey relationship.
On the one hand, from a Doylist point of view, it just felt very tacked on. The whole bit with RTD thinking it would be fun to have another 'Smith & Jones' was a bit cringe-worthy, plus it only seemed to cement the ultimate lack of real interest he seemed to have in both Mickey and Martha's character arcs. It was as if they were a second thought and it was all 'oh, wouldn't it be handy clever if I paired them up at the end so I don't have to think about what to do with them'. While I always felt the Tom/Martha relationship was a bit awkward and forced as well, I think it would have been nice to have acknowledged a bit about how it ended instead of it being this weird mystery of Martha being engaged to Tom (and possibly marrying?) and then suddenly being married to Mickey out of the blue. I don't mind things happening off screen (it gives great fodder for fanfic), of course, but that was a bit much
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plus it only seemed to cement the ultimate lack of real interest he seemed to have in both Mickey and Martha's character arcs. I have thought this as well--that is lack of character development, but both Martha and Mickey's characters are allowed to grow more than the others and are given more real life competence than Rose and Donna who are only "good" whatever the heck that means, when they are with the Doctor. When you speak of the "Ultimate lack of real interest" are you referring to the how Davies allows the Doctor to dismiss Martha and Mickey?
When you speak of the "Ultimate lack of real interest" are you referring to the how Davies allows the Doctor to dismiss Martha and Mickey?
No, it's hard to articulate, but I guess I mean that I feel like those characters weren't at the forefront of Rusty's thoughts. In many ways it seemed they were simply ciphers or vehicles for other things for him -- Mickey, the mundane, bloke-y 'idiot' that existed to pale in contrast to the Doctor (so, of course, Rose would choose the Doctor over him), and Martha, the sounding board for Ten's Rose-grief and someone to reject to prove his love for Rose.
Personally, I don't believe these things about them at all, of course, and I think that's the thing -- in way things backfired because I think, for example, the audience perhaps wasn't supposed to love Mickey so much and side with him (and Jackie) over Rose's selfishness (to be fair, I think this changed as S2 went on and they celebrated Mickey more in the text) or cheer for Martha when she left, siding with her and thinking Ten was a total dick
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Backfires a good word. I believe Davies when he says he was writing a typical story of unrequited love between Martha and the Doctor, because everyone has gone through an episode of rejection in their lives. However, his attempts at making the Doctor indifferent towards Martha just went overboard by the time we get Human Nature, it appears as if the Doctor is deliberately wearing away Martha's self-esteem. Fans either had to take the tack of the Doctor=Jerk, or Martha=Weak/Whiner
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First of all: I've shipped Martha/Mickey since sometimes in season three. Yes, while Mickey was still in the parallel universe and theoretically never coming back. That's what fandom is for.
They're both strong, clever, impossibly attractive people who I believe would absolutely and unconditionally adore and support each other. They've both been through life-changing experiences and saved the world and they can connect over that. And they've both got a bit of a geeky streak.
I also ship Mickey/Martha/Tom and have elaborate headcanon about the three of them.
That said:
I hate the scene in The End Of Time. It comes off terribly. There's no onscreen buildup at all; the last we see of Martha/Mickey they barely know each other's names and they might both be going off to work for Torchwood but then again they might not. More to the point, it's written lazily and clumsily. (Not even just the buildup, the actual reveal. "This is no place for a married woman." "Guess you shouldn't have married me, then." That is not Mickey and Martha
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I don't because I would have like to have some idea of how they got to that point and it sort of frustrates me we have no idea what happen realy.
I do because they are both strong characters who would have a lot of understanding of what they've each been through. And more than anything, I could see them supporting each other through any and everything.
Certainly doesn't hurt that they're both attractive.
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Also, there's the family dynamic. Mickey has always struck me as a fairly low-drama person on a day-to-day level. Martha comes from an extremely high-drama family, and I get the impression that she was required to be "the sensible one" as often as not. It might be very pleasant and restful to be with someone mellow, someone you can relax around and not have to play any sort of role. I could believe she found that in Mickey.
That being said, I think that the execution ( ... )
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Problematic how?
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I also remember high school, where black boys who dated white girls were frequently resented for "stealing" them, and white boys who dated black girls were regarded with a certain amount of confusion, as if no-one could understand why they'd want to. One of the things I always liked about Rose's introduction was that she was dating Mickey, and it wasn't supposed to be a big deal that he was black and she wasn't. He wasn't stealing her, she wasn't slumming, he wasn't getting away ( ... )
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what are some reasons that Mickey and Martha would fall in love that have nothing to do with past relationships with the Doctor and Rose?Y'know, it's really hard to separate that out. They both learned weird new skills thanks to being around the Doctor. They both know the sting of being overlooked/underappreciated. They've undergone major changes in life situations because they've traveled through time and space ( ... )
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Y'know, it's really hard to separate that out. May I ask why it seems hard to separate Martha and Mickey's attraction to each from the past relationships with Doctor and Rose? Do you mean seperate it as in, they have to share their sexual history, or something else?
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But it's not about the romance angle of it, just about how traveling with the Doctor transforms people.
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Traveling with the Doctor would change anyone--and I quite can't see Martha with goofy Mickey of the first shows. There is a marvelous interview with Noel when he talks about how much he disliked those first few performances.
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On the one hand, from a Doylist point of view, it just felt very tacked on. The whole bit with RTD thinking it would be fun to have another 'Smith & Jones' was a bit cringe-worthy, plus it only seemed to cement the ultimate lack of real interest he seemed to have in both Mickey and Martha's character arcs. It was as if they were a second thought and it was all 'oh, wouldn't it be handy clever if I paired them up at the end so I don't have to think about what to do with them'. While I always felt the Tom/Martha relationship was a bit awkward and forced as well, I think it would have been nice to have acknowledged a bit about how it ended instead of it being this weird mystery of Martha being engaged to Tom (and possibly marrying?) and then suddenly being married to Mickey out of the blue. I don't mind things happening off screen (it gives great fodder for fanfic), of course, but that was a bit much ( ... )
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No, it's hard to articulate, but I guess I mean that I feel like those characters weren't at the forefront of Rusty's thoughts. In many ways it seemed they were simply ciphers or vehicles for other things for him -- Mickey, the mundane, bloke-y 'idiot' that existed to pale in contrast to the Doctor (so, of course, Rose would choose the Doctor over him), and Martha, the sounding board for Ten's Rose-grief and someone to reject to prove his love for Rose.
Personally, I don't believe these things about them at all, of course, and I think that's the thing -- in way things backfired because I think, for example, the audience perhaps wasn't supposed to love Mickey so much and side with him (and Jackie) over Rose's selfishness (to be fair, I think this changed as S2 went on and they celebrated Mickey more in the text) or cheer for Martha when she left, siding with her and thinking Ten was a total dick ( ... )
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They're both strong, clever, impossibly attractive people who I believe would absolutely and unconditionally adore and support each other. They've both been through life-changing experiences and saved the world and they can connect over that. And they've both got a bit of a geeky streak.
I also ship Mickey/Martha/Tom and have elaborate headcanon about the three of them.
That said:
I hate the scene in The End Of Time. It comes off terribly. There's no onscreen buildup at all; the last we see of Martha/Mickey they barely know each other's names and they might both be going off to work for Torchwood but then again they might not. More to the point, it's written lazily and clumsily. (Not even just the buildup, the actual reveal. "This is no place for a married woman." "Guess you shouldn't have married me, then." That is not Mickey and Martha ( ... )
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