The Lyre and the Bow (Apollo Choosing Sides)

[dionusia]

I'm continuing the rewatch discussion with some thoughts on Lee's role as intermediary between the civilian and military powers in both the Miniseries and "Bastille Day." I hope this will eventually connect to my planned meta on Lee's arc in season 4 (as requested by siljamus), as it concerns his early support for the democratic system, and where he gives

Comments

[elzed]

Oh, word to all of the above. I awlays thought Lee's reasoning all the way through Bastille Day was unimpeachable - if, that is, you are prejudiced in favour of some sort of order and a degree of democracy in the midst of a crisis. And I love how he balances the two, and how he uses logic to defend himself (that last exchange with Roslin and Adama is just so perfect in that respect).

And no, it's not just because he's a pretty boy, but in retrospect, I think his whole argument throughout that episode is one of the many reasons I fell for his character hook, line and sinker. I'm a sucker for principle underpinned by pragmatism, and Captain Apollo has both in spades.

Lords, but I am giddy. Shame he's only a fictional character...

[dionusia]

if, that is, you are prejudiced in favour of some sort of order and a degree of democracy in the midst of a crisis

Heh, yeah, I am, just a little bit! I can definitely see how this time of extreme crisis might call for less debate and a stronger hand, but people used to the idea of democracy can't be expected to go along with everything tamely without being afforded some degree of rights. I'd almost forgotten, watching these eps, how close they were to having no civilian government at all.

And no, it's not just because he's a pretty boy, but in retrospect, I think his whole argument throughout that episode is one of the many reasons I fell for his character hook, line and sinker.

Yes, this was my first "head over heels" Lee ep. The way he takes them down with logic is so damn badass.

I like "principle underpinned by pragmatism", too--that sums up much more neatly everything I was trying to say!

[dionusia]

I meant a stronger hand on the civilian side -- I was thinking of the kind of temporary dictators the Roman Republic had, because in times of extreme emergencies, they couldn't afford back and forth between the senate and the consuls. But yes, a military dictatorship not answering to a civilian authority would be such a terrible idea. Even in the Mini, when the survivors need help, Adama and the rest of the people on Galactica just don't care for the longest time -- they were even going to abandon them at Ragnar Anchorage. All they care about is getting back into battle. Cain's biggest mistake (one I think was not logical or justified at all) was to believe that war was her imperative. But it's not the military's imperative; it's to defend the people. Adama would have made the same kinds of decisions if Roslin and Lee hadn't gotten in his face and never let up. I loved that moment at the end of "Razor" when Adama acknowledged that

[bitterlatinist]

Yea! Lee upholding the Democracy.

I'll have a more coherent response to your awesome meta at a later time, but for now I present. . .

[dionusia]

AHAHAHA, oh, you Adama boys...

[dionusia]

Adama just fails to recognize these traits in himself

Too true! Or maybe he sees it, but tries to hide some of those similarities. I mean, Lee has no idea how much more Adama breaks down and cries.

I've never forgotten that Lee Adama, even though on occasion it felt as though the writers had *continues to gnash teeth over election storyline in season 2*

Ah, yes. I always wondered why they never involved him in that, curse it all (and really, could this never have even come up in his relationship with Dee? Ergh!).

Speaking of: I was talking to some Roslin people about that, and they got the impression that Lee completely withdrew from her (and politics) because he was so disillusioned over the Cain issue. I was startled by that because it just seemed to me that after "Home", Laura cut Lee out--his position as her adviser was so unofficial, entirely dependent upon her, wouldn't Lee's involvement in politics be entirely dependent on her wishes? The post always seemed code for "Help me deal with your father" anyway, and post-

[callmeonetrack]

Snorting with laughter over the snittypants family icons. So, so true.

This is a very thoughtful analysis. I don't particularly have a lot to say in response, just that I appreciated it. But on this one point:

What makes anyone a Commander anymore, or a President? Why should people follow them? Are they all just playacting, clinging reflexively to old systems that no longer have any meaning in this new, desperate world?

One thing that always baffles me in this show is whenever anyone mutinies. It always seems like a posturing contest for someone to say "I'm in charge!" and someone else to say "No I'm in charge!" Who wins in a face-off mutiny situation? I guess whoever's got the most cojones and the firepower to enforce their will. Even on the Demetrius, Kara trying to relieve Helo of duty and him saying no we're mutinying and I'm relieving you of duty. It's like well, stalemate, so who wins? I guess whoever can arrest or shoot the other first. There's something sort of silly about it to me. Snitty, even.

[dionusia]

It's like well, stalemate, so who wins?

Whoever can get the most people to follow them, I guess? That scene on the Demetrius reminded me of the time that Lee was on the Pegasus in "Captain's Hand," and Garner defied a direct order from their superior officer (Adama), so Lee recited Colonial code and demanded that the marines relieve Garner of command, at the same time Garner ordered the Marines to take Lee away to the brig for insubordination. The marines just shrugged and followed Garner's orders. Lee was right, but the Pegasus people stayed loyal to their own leader. But yeah, Mexican standoffs as a way to resolve issues seems mighty crazy!

[katiebugs18]

Great meta. If you think about it Lee pretty much ensured that the fleet remained a democracy. Had Lee not demanded the fleet follow colonial law, had he not made that bargain with Zarek, it's quite probable democracy as a form of government would have crumbled

[dionusia]

You say that had Laura not abided by colonial law her base of support would have crumbled but who would have challenged her? Who really would have stood up and held her to those laws?I think Lee's concern is that they already have people standing up and questioning why she should be in charge (or maybe I should say 'still'). The shock of the inital attacks is wearing off now. Zarek already made broadcast and pointed out that no one elected her, so the danger is that everyone would realize that there's no reason she should be in charge, and that the old laws don't apply any longer. In a lawless situation the fleet could easily tear itself apart with infighting and chaos. Lee wasn't certain that Roslin's government would face rebellion or anarchy, but I think he was trying to guard against that possibility

[dionusia]

I'm glad you enjoyed it! I have a pretty strong attachment to Lee's principles and the way he thinks, even if it's not always been easy on him.

right from the time he snarked to Chief about someone missing his father

I thought that part was funny too. The whole time he's going around he just has this expression on his face: "Oh no, you did not just try to kiss my ass by praising my father."

Your icon makes me giggle!