#1 and #2 seems more likely to me. Trusting Castiel, not so much. The need to do something in answer to Sam's, then get angry, to do something valuable when he was feeling tired and listless and wrecked? Even when he knwe that that something would destroy him. Hm, yes. I think that played a part in his decision.
Now I feel that Dean's mission needs to be self-redemption, whereas before, I agreed with most of fandom that he just needed therapy.
I'm not sure I agree with you. What I think, though is not the point. The important part, I think is that Dean already thinks he needs redemption. Hasn't been this the theme of this season for Dean? When everybody was telling him that it wasn't his fault, Dean thought the worse of himself. First for selling his soul, then for breaking in Hell. But at this point I don't see any beliavable way to redeem Dean in Dean's eyes.
What a depressing episode! *clings to you*
Oh, and I forgot to add: Magen David as torture rack? THE FUCK? Yes. WTF?
Even when he knwe that that something would destroy him. Hm, yes. I think that played a part in his decision.
I really wonder whether choosing to do it was a form of punishment for himself. A way to just sort of... throw himself away, give up on himself, something. Whatever the case, he knew going in that he wouldn't be the same walking out.
The important part, I think is that Dean already thinks he needs redemption.
It's true. I would have agreed before this that he's kind of blameless for just about everything. But somehow, seeing him torture someone, it makes me think he's not being unreasonable to believe his guilt is valid. Just a little bit.... It doesn't make me like him less, but it does kind of change my estimation of who he is and what his story is becoming. (Overall, I like how complex they're making it all, and I'm sure he'll get that redemption somehow.)
Yes. WTF?
Thank you. I just... It only gets more offensive the more I consider it. Might have to write a letter.
I get what you're saying here. I just... we already know that Dean was a torturer in Hell so I pretty much accepted that that was what Dean did for those 10 yearts. It must have not been pretty. It isn't pretty at all. I can't see much differences here. He's still prisoner, of his guilt, of the role this God apparently assigned him, with not a lot of options to say no the same way he was in Hell basically.
I was very sorry about that. I also was very sorry to see that only a few people complained about it. I was thinking. These kind of issues should be treated the same way you know? Not talking about them becasue it's the cool, hot subject of the moment. I don't even know if I'm making sense.
Are you writing or still basking in the OMG! *pokes*
Possibly I was in denial over Dean's last 10 years in hell. :) This ep really brought it home.
He's still prisoner, of his guilt, of the role this God apparently assigned him, with not a lot of options to say no the same way he was in Hell basically.
Yes. This is on the dot.
I also was very sorry to see that only a few people complained about it. I was thinking. These kind of issues should be treated the same way you know? Not talking about them becasue it's the cool, hot subject of the moment. I don't even know if I'm making sense.No, you're making sense. I haven't seen a lot of reactions yet; none of the reviews I've read have mentioned the magen David at all. I'm not sure what to make of it all, though RaceFail is providing some analytical tools for working through it. I feel like I should be more angry on a regular basis because of some of the things that go on on SPN, and I feel bad that it took them messing with something from my own religion to get me this angry
( ... )
also -- sorry for my ignorance, but what is Magen David?
No, no, it's good to ask. :) A magen David is a star of David. *sigh* The one time SPN borrows from Judaism, and it's to appropriate a symbol to use as a torture device. It's really disappointing.
*checks picspam* O.O it IS, isn't it? i didn't look closely and i guess my brain assumed it was another pentagram. my guess as to that would be that maybe they thought they'd go old-school and extra powerful? isn't sera gamble jewish? wouldn't she know better?
isn't sera gamble jewish? wouldn't she know better?
I don't know. I used to read her blog (veryhotjews), and she seemed to enjoy being provocative. Even made a Holocaust pun once, iirc. Not my cup of tea. :/
I wasn't going to say anything about the Magen David, 'cause it felt thoughtless to me--like they needed a shape, and that wasn't as cliched as a pentagram? I prefer not to assume people are being maliciously idiotic. (If they'd used a pentagram, I would have loled for weeks, because there's a very popular piece of dungeon equipment up here that's shaped like a pentagram--called the Venus Pentacle, in fact. Haha, torture device.) Idk.
On a related note, yet another black guy is a villain in disguise.
I know, right? And he ends up dead! ARGH.
Now I feel that Dean's mission needs to be self-redemption, whereas before, I agreed with most of fandom that he just needed therapy.
Well, I think he needed some redemption anyway, 'cause of the whole torturing people in Hell thing (whether he needs redeeming 'cause he needs redeeming, or 'cause he thinks he needs redeeming is another discussion), but yes. I agree that his mission should become self-focused, rather than other-focused. Boy needs to do some serious work on himself before he
( ... )
it felt thoughtless to me--like they needed a shape, and that wasn't as cliched as a pentagram? I prefer not to assume people are being maliciously idiotic.
Yeah, I don't think they're being malicious either. Just really idiotic. And yes, thoughtless. *headdesk*
Well, I think he needed some redemption anyway, 'cause of the whole torturing people in Hell thing.
I agree. I think my problem was imagining Dean as torturer vs. seeing him do it. It was so abstract before, I could handwave it away just a little. Probably says something about my empathy, :P
Boy needs to do some serious work on himself before he even thinks about helping anybody else.
I agree. If you see any fic where that happens, link me, maybe? Because I'm not sure he'll get that chance in the canon. Although maybe he will; show's getting a little unpredictable.
I think I might have thrown something if I'd heard that. Wow, seriously.
It was deeply disturbing. Especially when Sam didn't even blink.
I kind of enjoyed how Sam is apparently totally ignoring Pamela's
( ... )
Comments 10
Now I feel that Dean's mission needs to be self-redemption, whereas before, I agreed with most of fandom that he just needed therapy.
I'm not sure I agree with you. What I think, though is not the point. The important part, I think is that Dean already thinks he needs redemption. Hasn't been this the theme of this season for Dean? When everybody was telling him that it wasn't his fault, Dean thought the worse of himself. First for selling his soul, then for breaking in Hell. But at this point I don't see any beliavable way to redeem Dean in Dean's eyes.
What a depressing episode!
*clings to you*
Oh, and I forgot to add: Magen David as torture rack? THE FUCK? Yes. WTF?
Reply
I really wonder whether choosing to do it was a form of punishment for himself. A way to just sort of... throw himself away, give up on himself, something. Whatever the case, he knew going in that he wouldn't be the same walking out.
The important part, I think is that Dean already thinks he needs redemption.
It's true. I would have agreed before this that he's kind of blameless for just about everything. But somehow, seeing him torture someone, it makes me think he's not being unreasonable to believe his guilt is valid. Just a little bit.... It doesn't make me like him less, but it does kind of change my estimation of who he is and what his story is becoming. (Overall, I like how complex they're making it all, and I'm sure he'll get that redemption somehow.)
Yes. WTF?
Thank you. I just... It only gets more offensive the more I consider it. Might have to write a letter.
Reply
I was very sorry about that. I also was very sorry to see that only a few people complained about it. I was thinking. These kind of issues should be treated the same way you know? Not talking about them becasue it's the cool, hot subject of the moment.
I don't even know if I'm making sense.
Are you writing or still basking in the OMG! *pokes*
Reply
He's still prisoner, of his guilt, of the role this God apparently assigned him, with not a lot of options to say no the same way he was in Hell basically.
Yes. This is on the dot.
I also was very sorry to see that only a few people complained about it. I was thinking. These kind of issues should be treated the same way you know? Not talking about them becasue it's the cool, hot subject of the moment.
I don't even know if I'm making sense.No, you're making sense. I haven't seen a lot of reactions yet; none of the reviews I've read have mentioned the magen David at all. I'm not sure what to make of it all, though RaceFail is providing some analytical tools for working through it. I feel like I should be more angry on a regular basis because of some of the things that go on on SPN, and I feel bad that it took them messing with something from my own religion to get me this angry ( ... )
Reply
also -- sorry for my ignorance, but what is Magen David?
Reply
It was so wrong!
also -- sorry for my ignorance, but what is Magen David?
No, no, it's good to ask. :) A magen David is a star of David. *sigh* The one time SPN borrows from Judaism, and it's to appropriate a symbol to use as a torture device. It's really disappointing.
Reply
Reply
I don't know. I used to read her blog (veryhotjews), and she seemed to enjoy being provocative. Even made a Holocaust pun once, iirc. Not my cup of tea. :/
Reply
On a related note, yet another black guy is a villain in disguise.
I know, right? And he ends up dead! ARGH.
Now I feel that Dean's mission needs to be self-redemption, whereas before, I agreed with most of fandom that he just needed therapy.
Well, I think he needed some redemption anyway, 'cause of the whole torturing people in Hell thing (whether he needs redeeming 'cause he needs redeeming, or 'cause he thinks he needs redeeming is another discussion), but yes. I agree that his mission should become self-focused, rather than other-focused. Boy needs to do some serious work on himself before he ( ... )
Reply
Yeah, I don't think they're being malicious either. Just really idiotic. And yes, thoughtless. *headdesk*
Well, I think he needed some redemption anyway, 'cause of the whole torturing people in Hell thing.
I agree. I think my problem was imagining Dean as torturer vs. seeing him do it. It was so abstract before, I could handwave it away just a little. Probably says something about my empathy, :P
Boy needs to do some serious work on himself before he even thinks about helping anybody else.
I agree. If you see any fic where that happens, link me, maybe? Because I'm not sure he'll get that chance in the canon. Although maybe he will; show's getting a little unpredictable.
I think I might have thrown something if I'd heard that. Wow, seriously.
It was deeply disturbing. Especially when Sam didn't even blink.
I kind of enjoyed how Sam is apparently totally ignoring Pamela's ( ... )
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