What Makes a Marriage Last?
Interesting discussion topic on
datinandrelatin. I think a lot of people are looking for "love" and "The One", but they're not thinking enough about the qualities and conditions that must exist for a long term relationship a.k.a marriage to last. I suspect a lot of men aren't that different from women in the sense that they 'would like to get married some day when they meet and "fall in love" with "The One"'. Lots of male romantics out there.
N.B. All online conversations are slightly edited, mostly for readability.
Conversation 1: (part of it)
S: and i've been pondering it some more, because it's very tempting to get into a marriage of convenience just to profit from restricted real estate. already lost one golden opportunity from pondering for too long. and i still feel it's pretty tacky/tawdry to get married just to make money.
G: You're shitting me. You are seriously considering it?
S: what? no. just pondering the idea of doing that, make money, then divorce.
S: well...i'm not exactly letting go of that idea. but it's certainly something i'm factoring in now.
G: I think it would be a serious mistake
S: but of course it's not a main factor
G: I have to admit I am completely flabbergasted
S: *hides* ok, it is tacky. but like i said, it's not the primary reason or even sole reason. i could write a whole list of why i want to get married and preferably sooner than later.
G: I can understand wanting to get married. Heck, I want to get married myself. But the most important thing about marriage is the person you are with. It's really about having a lifetime partnership with love, respect, and friendship. Alright, I'm sure you've heard all that before. Not very profound, huh?
S: well love is profound. i don't think many people truly understand love.
G: But I as someone who has been in several long-term relationships that didn't work out. I've ended up thinking a lot about what is important.
S: well i think in my mom's way of thinking, i'm supposed to get married soon after i finish my degree.
G: I never really got this whole idea of life scheduling. Like you can control when you meet the right person or find the right job or so on
S: must be an asian thing
G: No, I've met white americans with the same nutty idea
S: i think the idea is that you make it a job to do it, like making a sale
G: I mean, I can understand working towards finding someone right. I've done a fair bit of that myself
S: i don't know, i've had some interesting ideas thrown at me lately. like "working hard to find that somebody" rather than hoping they'll drop from the sky and land on you.
G: But that doesn't mean you can control whether you actually do meet the right person
S: well i think meeting the "right" person is also a matter of self awareness
G: It's a bit naive to think that the only effort necessary to meet the right person is just to go on dates
S: i mean, i'm so serious about this whole getting married thing. i've even got a 'backup spouse' now
G: What the fuck?
S: so my friend and i have placed a binary option on each other
G: That is kind of screwed up in my opinion (G, expert diplomat)
S: well an option is a right not an obligation to buy an underlying security :p
G: Seriously, though, I think divorce rates are so high because not enough people are properly choosy about who they marry.
S: that or they're not trying to make their relationship work post wedding
G: I mean, I know a number of people who have gotten divorced, and of the couples that I've known before they were married, I'd seen it coming already. You know, that sort "shit, I hope I'm wrong and they work out, but I think they are either going to miserably married or divorced" feeling.
S: ok, can't say i know much about that. mostly the friends who got married i'm not that close to or i know next to nothing about their partners.
G: What I was trying to say is that although my observations are purely anecdotal, they consistently point to the #1 problem in marriage being initial choice. That is why I think it is so important to be choosy in who you marry. I think some people get confused, particularly when they are in love, and end up not thinking very clearly. Actually, make that many people :) Love is necessary, but not sufficient.
S: i've been trying to figure out what love is or "being in love" is. i thought i had a handle on it before but evidently i'm wrong.
G: A tricky thing to properly define, I admit. I tempted to say that it's kind of like one US Supreme Court justice said about porn, that you "know it when you see it." It really comes down to the extreme subjectivity of perception. You might as well ask if the color you are seeing is actually green or blue. People say all kinds of things about love, your neural network gets trained on that very fuzzy input, and then you when you experience a feeling that matches some of that, you define that feeling as love. I think ultimately, if you think that you are in love, then you are. If you have doubts, then you probably aren't.
S: Engineering analogies to life, that's rich.
G: I don't even think its an analogy. I'm halfway trained as a neuroscientist, after all. I tend to take a scientific view about emotion.
S: well, you're a scientist. you're almost hardwired to.
G: Anyway, I think it's not terribly useful from that standpoint of personal decision making to think a lot about what love is. You either are or are not in love, as decided by your own subjective experience
Conversation 2:
S: maybe i'll just exercise the option once we get the other things sorted out. unless someone comes along and do a trade on the OTCIMB. /lame joke
A: bleh, that makes me feel ill. But hey. Good luck with it anyway...
S: i dunno. to be honest it's all very confusing. i think i'll take the more scientific approach to relationships
A: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/If_Lucy_Fell. scientific
S: fill in some compatibility worksheets and check for a good match
A: "science, it works bitches!"
A: making me very ill now :(
A: love is not a fucking business deal, it's not a convenience, it's not who looks good on your arm walking into a room, it's not what other people think.
S: i think this whole fall in love business is a myth. i'm looking for someone i'm comfortable with; whose company i enjoy. if it's a friend then that criteria is quite close i suppose. i just need to make sure of other things. so whatever we do decide, we're going into it with our eyes open.
A: criteria. checklist. these are not the things of love.
S: what _is_ love?
A: why sell out that that cheap. seriously
S: i'm not selling out. i think it's better than "hot infatuous love" that leads to divorce 3.5 years later.
A: yes one misery IS better than another
S: i think men believe in romance novels more than they care to admit.
A: never read one. I have read "Love in the Time of Cholera" by Garbriel Marquez
A: I'll reject both of those miseries, however.
S: why do you think it's selling out?
A: it fits so beautifully with societal pressure. go marry a "nice" boy
S: but i do want to get married
A: one who you can have a partnership with. create your list of requirements. it just makes me sick is all. That's not how it should be.
A: If you have no other option at all, it's still sucks. Something society does especially to women making sure that they never get to see much of life. give up the thing that most makes life worth living to be yet another slave doing the older generation's bidding.
A: thank you no
S: bah. but i want to get married.
A: why?
S: companionship.
A: *buy* a dog
S: it's not the same.
S: someone to hold at 2am in the morning in bed
A: take a lover
S: it's not the same. and it's not trivial to find a lover either. might as well get married.
A: 2am with someone you're married to whom you don't love. think about how messed up lonely that could be
S: and i'm past the age of one night stands
A: you never got to the age of one night stands
S: what is love anyway? i bet most guys don't know.
A: I 100% guarantee you it is not a business transaction with the requisite number of boxes ticked in your checklist.
A is an ex investment banker who seems pretty bitter about a lot of things. We've never talked about his past and we usually talk about other largely impersonal things.
datinandrelatin. I think a lot of people are looking for "love" and "The One", but they're not thinking enough about the qualities and conditions that must exist for a long term relationship a.k.a marriage to last. I suspect a lot of men aren't that different from women in the sense that they 'would like to get married some day when they meet and "fall in love" with "The One"'. Lots of male romantics out there.
N.B. All online conversations are slightly edited, mostly for readability.
Conversation 1: (part of it)
S: and i've been pondering it some more, because it's very tempting to get into a marriage of convenience just to profit from restricted real estate. already lost one golden opportunity from pondering for too long. and i still feel it's pretty tacky/tawdry to get married just to make money.
G: You're shitting me. You are seriously considering it?
S: what? no. just pondering the idea of doing that, make money, then divorce.
S: well...i'm not exactly letting go of that idea. but it's certainly something i'm factoring in now.
G: I think it would be a serious mistake
S: but of course it's not a main factor
G: I have to admit I am completely flabbergasted
S: *hides* ok, it is tacky. but like i said, it's not the primary reason or even sole reason. i could write a whole list of why i want to get married and preferably sooner than later.
G: I can understand wanting to get married. Heck, I want to get married myself. But the most important thing about marriage is the person you are with. It's really about having a lifetime partnership with love, respect, and friendship. Alright, I'm sure you've heard all that before. Not very profound, huh?
S: well love is profound. i don't think many people truly understand love.
G: But I as someone who has been in several long-term relationships that didn't work out. I've ended up thinking a lot about what is important.
S: well i think in my mom's way of thinking, i'm supposed to get married soon after i finish my degree.
G: I never really got this whole idea of life scheduling. Like you can control when you meet the right person or find the right job or so on
S: must be an asian thing
G: No, I've met white americans with the same nutty idea
S: i think the idea is that you make it a job to do it, like making a sale
G: I mean, I can understand working towards finding someone right. I've done a fair bit of that myself
S: i don't know, i've had some interesting ideas thrown at me lately. like "working hard to find that somebody" rather than hoping they'll drop from the sky and land on you.
G: But that doesn't mean you can control whether you actually do meet the right person
S: well i think meeting the "right" person is also a matter of self awareness
G: It's a bit naive to think that the only effort necessary to meet the right person is just to go on dates
S: i mean, i'm so serious about this whole getting married thing. i've even got a 'backup spouse' now
G: What the fuck?
S: so my friend and i have placed a binary option on each other
G: That is kind of screwed up in my opinion (G, expert diplomat)
S: well an option is a right not an obligation to buy an underlying security :p
G: Seriously, though, I think divorce rates are so high because not enough people are properly choosy about who they marry.
S: that or they're not trying to make their relationship work post wedding
G: I mean, I know a number of people who have gotten divorced, and of the couples that I've known before they were married, I'd seen it coming already. You know, that sort "shit, I hope I'm wrong and they work out, but I think they are either going to miserably married or divorced" feeling.
S: ok, can't say i know much about that. mostly the friends who got married i'm not that close to or i know next to nothing about their partners.
G: What I was trying to say is that although my observations are purely anecdotal, they consistently point to the #1 problem in marriage being initial choice. That is why I think it is so important to be choosy in who you marry. I think some people get confused, particularly when they are in love, and end up not thinking very clearly. Actually, make that many people :) Love is necessary, but not sufficient.
S: i've been trying to figure out what love is or "being in love" is. i thought i had a handle on it before but evidently i'm wrong.
G: A tricky thing to properly define, I admit. I tempted to say that it's kind of like one US Supreme Court justice said about porn, that you "know it when you see it." It really comes down to the extreme subjectivity of perception. You might as well ask if the color you are seeing is actually green or blue. People say all kinds of things about love, your neural network gets trained on that very fuzzy input, and then you when you experience a feeling that matches some of that, you define that feeling as love. I think ultimately, if you think that you are in love, then you are. If you have doubts, then you probably aren't.
S: Engineering analogies to life, that's rich.
G: I don't even think its an analogy. I'm halfway trained as a neuroscientist, after all. I tend to take a scientific view about emotion.
S: well, you're a scientist. you're almost hardwired to.
G: Anyway, I think it's not terribly useful from that standpoint of personal decision making to think a lot about what love is. You either are or are not in love, as decided by your own subjective experience
Conversation 2:
S: maybe i'll just exercise the option once we get the other things sorted out. unless someone comes along and do a trade on the OTCIMB. /lame joke
A: bleh, that makes me feel ill. But hey. Good luck with it anyway...
S: i dunno. to be honest it's all very confusing. i think i'll take the more scientific approach to relationships
A: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/If_Lucy_Fell. scientific
S: fill in some compatibility worksheets and check for a good match
A: "science, it works bitches!"
A: making me very ill now :(
A: love is not a fucking business deal, it's not a convenience, it's not who looks good on your arm walking into a room, it's not what other people think.
S: i think this whole fall in love business is a myth. i'm looking for someone i'm comfortable with; whose company i enjoy. if it's a friend then that criteria is quite close i suppose. i just need to make sure of other things. so whatever we do decide, we're going into it with our eyes open.
A: criteria. checklist. these are not the things of love.
S: what _is_ love?
A: why sell out that that cheap. seriously
S: i'm not selling out. i think it's better than "hot infatuous love" that leads to divorce 3.5 years later.
A: yes one misery IS better than another
S: i think men believe in romance novels more than they care to admit.
A: never read one. I have read "Love in the Time of Cholera" by Garbriel Marquez
A: I'll reject both of those miseries, however.
S: why do you think it's selling out?
A: it fits so beautifully with societal pressure. go marry a "nice" boy
S: but i do want to get married
A: one who you can have a partnership with. create your list of requirements. it just makes me sick is all. That's not how it should be.
A: If you have no other option at all, it's still sucks. Something society does especially to women making sure that they never get to see much of life. give up the thing that most makes life worth living to be yet another slave doing the older generation's bidding.
A: thank you no
S: bah. but i want to get married.
A: why?
S: companionship.
A: *buy* a dog
S: it's not the same.
S: someone to hold at 2am in the morning in bed
A: take a lover
S: it's not the same. and it's not trivial to find a lover either. might as well get married.
A: 2am with someone you're married to whom you don't love. think about how messed up lonely that could be
S: and i'm past the age of one night stands
A: you never got to the age of one night stands
S: what is love anyway? i bet most guys don't know.
A: I 100% guarantee you it is not a business transaction with the requisite number of boxes ticked in your checklist.
A is an ex investment banker who seems pretty bitter about a lot of things. We've never talked about his past and we usually talk about other largely impersonal things.