Knave or Fool?

[terri_testing]

“Tell me honestly . . . do you think me most a knave or a fool ?’” asked John Willoughby of Miss Dashwood, and I think it’s time we addressed that question directly with regards to our friend and mentor Albus.

Comments

[oryx_leucoryx]

Well, in the cave he did have an audience, so psychopath!Albus might have been playing remorse to Harry. He was expecting to die that night (at least since he heard Harry's report of Draco's celebratory whooping from the ROR). Did he expect the tales of his past to be revealed between his death and the completion of Harry's mission? He was expecting the trio to get involved with the Hallows since he was planning on leaving the book to Hermione. One might argue he was setting Harry up into seeing him as remorseful over Ariana's death in case Harry ever learns of that bit of story, in order to keep Harry's faith

Playing at remorse in the cave?

[terri_testing]

A worthy opening

Re: Playing at remorse in the cave?

[oryx_leucoryx]

If Tom used an existing magical cave, he wouldn't know of the potentially purifying effect of the lake, since he does not experience remorse. Dumbles could research the potion and the lake water (he knew that disturbing the water would alert the inferi). So he had the choice of really purifying himself or faking it. If he chose to fake it, then he was willing to risk dying unpurified (which of course would have been the case had he not discovered the cave in the first place). Did he fear he would not be able to down the whole amount? Or did he fear he wouldn't be able to hold off the inferi in time if he did?

Kreacher did of course drink the entire amount and the lake water, so at least for a while he was the purest magical being in Britain. (Assuming the presence of the inferi did not counter the purifying effect of the lake; in this case there would be no point in not-cheating.)

Re: Playing at remorse in the cave?

[seductivedark]

He might know of the lake's effect because of old tales. He was a reader, and it's not unlikely that the restricted section wasn't as restricted in his time. With Tom's interest in his magical ancestry, he may very likely have been interested in reading up on all the lore, as though he'd been raised in the lifestyle. I'm jumping to a few conclusions here: that there is a body of lore on things like magical birdbaths and purifying lakes, and that this lore is now restricted - it could just be that Harry & Co. don't notice things like that, or believe in them, or whatever. They didn't know about horcruxes or hallows, or at least didn't give them enough credence to even think about them seriously for two seconds. It might be a Weasley effect, too - they told the kids tales of The Boy Who Lived, but not about the Deathly Hallows. Could be that the Weasleys themselves didn't believe and so didn't pass on that lore; that was for crackpots like X. Lovegood

[guardians_song]

I tend to see Albus as incredibly and ridiculously /weak/ (rather like a cockier version of Peter Pettigrew, come to think of it) rather than evil - "evil" being too complimentary, as it implies there's a solid person in there to be evil. I cite JKR's insane interview that claimed Albus, formerly a very moral student, saw nothing wrong with genocide while head over heels for Gellert. What

[mary_j_59]

That's interesting, because, I believe, one definition of evil is weakness. It's not a positive quality in itself, rather, it's lack of integrity and the absence of good. And I'd say those things do define Albus Dumbledore, even more than they define Tom Riddle. Both are weak, I think, but Dumbledore is more so.

That said, there are some villains who are driven by recognizable human emotions like anger, envy, pride and fear. Villains like these seem more capable of redemption than those who, on some basic level, simply aren't there. Albus Dumbledore may well be one of the latter - a hollow man. C.S. Lewis called them men without chests.

[sweettalkeress]

It's interesting that you bring that up because this past summer I watched an anime featuring a villain who, as you say, just wasn't all there. And he was easily the scariest villain in a series with some pretty terrifying people. He could go through the day with a beautiful boyish smile on his face and at the same time plot to wipe out most of humanity and strangle a man to death with his bare hands for crossing him. What made him interesting was trying to figure out how and why he wasn't all there and to what extent he wasn't all there (it's implied, though never spelled out, that he'd gone numb from post-traumatic stress).

[sweettalkeress]

"Harry is so full of shit as to the explanation he gives for the potion. Kreacher saw "horrible things" and cried for his Mistress Black. There's no indication whatsoever that whatever Albus saw had ANYTHING to do with Ariana, Gellert, or Aberforth. He cried and screamed, he blathered nonsense in his delirium, and Harry's explanation is crazier than any fan essay. For all we know, he was screaming for the invisible tormentors not to harm his trophies."

Tell me about it. Before the last book came out, my parents (who are not Snapefen by any means) theorized that Dumbledore in that scene had been forced to adopt the persona of Snape begging Voldemort to spare the lives of Lily and her family.

[ioanna_ioannina]

If Dumbledore was a genius, he should be able to foresee the outcome of his potential actions, and therefore for me, he is a villain.
If he was not a genius, I can find an excuse for him.
So the argumentation for me is, was Dumbledore a genius (or was he intelligent enough to be able to foresee the possible events), or was he not?

Because I see the main problem in this: if there is only one school, if the whole population depends on having passed some type of exam and you can pass it only at that school, and if a Headmaster allows one quarter of school children to be ostracized (like Slytherins were under Dumbledore), the emerging of a Dark Lord is only a matter of time.
Psychopats like Tom Riddle happen. It's the functional society what stops them - or allows them to rise.
And as I see it - a Minister is dealing with the present time, but future is in the hands of a Headmaster. He is, who shapes the school where the future productive generation is taught how the world works.

[oryx_leucoryx]

Intelligence has many dimensions. Some can be a genius is science (or magic) and at the same time a simpleton where it comes to human affairs. And wizarding society seems to appreciate the former kind of intelligence and just assumes that it implies the latter too. Not sure how that can happen when both Hufflepuffs and Slytherins are socially aware. But then both are ill-considered in Dumbledore's Hogwarts (we don't know what their relative status was in earlier times, but I doubt the ostracizing of Slytherins started much earlier because there would be no smart Slytherins around by now if so).

[ioanna_ioannina]

You're right. Then the question is: was Dumbledore able to foresee the outcome of his actions?
Not everything, of course; only things like "If I'll do/allow this, it can cause roughly that".

Because there is one thing I don't understand about Dumbledore. He is repeating a few mistakes all along, starting with Gellert and Ariana. Is it because of his stupidity, or is it an intention?
(EDIT: He covers it by stating that he is benign enough to give second chances, or just by not speaking about it. In fact, his second chances are no second chances - for the good people. He is giving second chances to the villains only - and to be better villains the second time only. The rest is smoke and mirrors.)

True about the Slytherins - I don't see the ostracizing as going for too long, either.

Ostracized Slytherins

[hwyla]

I would say that at the very least, it is unlikely that they were ostracized when Phineas Nigeleus was Headmaster. However, he died in 1925, which is at least 15years before Tom entered Hogwarts.

Truthfully, I did not get the feeling that Slytherins were particularly ostracized during Tom's time at Hogwarts. He was apparently a favorite of many teachers and only Albus 'suspected' anything was wrong about him. He sounds as if he was popular (unless he or his crowd apparently secretly 'picked' on you - don't know the extent, whether it was worse than the Marauders or not). However, I find it interesting that Albus was suspicious of Tom's gang, but didn't apparently disapprove of James'.

Anyways, I would say the Slytherins became more overtly separated from the rest of the school during/after Tom's time at Hogwarts. Albus was probably treating them differently, but not the rest of the staff. Certainly Dippet seemed to like Tom.

[dracasadiablo]

Why, unless continuing to pursue that shared dream had become impossible to reconcile with his own image of himself as a decent (ish) man?
I think it's precisely that.
That DD have always seen himself as a good man. Yes, he wanted to rule, but that would be for best of all! Any sacrifices that had to be made, while regrettable, would be for greater good. He was just so much smarter and more powerful then anybody that it would be only natural for him to be the one to make all decisions

[oryx_leucoryx]

I wonder what Albus would have done if his mother had lived (longer), so that when Gellert came to Godric's Hollow Albus would have been off with Elphias? What kind of career did he envision for himself?

[dracasadiablo]

Good question

[guardians_song]

I wonder what Albus would have done if his mother had lived (longer), so that when Gellert came to Godric's Hollow Albus would have been off with Elphias? What kind of career did he envision for himself?
I tend to think he would be rather Tom-like, but with more self-delusions. Go into politics, raise a militia if that didn't work out, and ultimately end up declaring himself a Dark LIGHT Lord and attempting to take over England because the fuddy-duddy society wouldn't listen to his brilliant ideas. (Even if the title of Light Lord doesn't exist in the HP universe, he'd probably invent it. Delusion springs eternal.)

Gellert knew what he wanted and didn't have to dress it up in delusions of it being 'for so-and-so's own good'. I think Albus rather received a bad shock from looking into a more honest, more bold mirror of his true self.

And, no matter what House he landed in (after all, you can always bargain with the Hat), Albus always was a coward.

[oneandthetruth]

Even if he shook off Gellert only in disgust for Gellert's having abandoned him to the mess of hushing up their mutual murder, why abandon his grandiose dreams if he hadn’t had a change of heart-and therefore, a heart to change?

How do you know he did abandon his dreams? We have no record of what Scummywhore was doing between 1898 (when he loved and lost Gellert) and 1937 (when he met Tom at the orphanage). That leaves almost forty years in which he could have been running around, pursuing his dreams of being a dictator. Even if you allow 5-10 years for him to have been teaching at Hogwarts before he met Tom (because a novice teacher probably wouldn’t have been sent on home visits), that still leaves 29-34 years for him to have pursued his political ambitions before realizing he would never become a big shot and resigning himself to teaching snotty-nosed brats

[oryx_leucoryx]

We know he did become a member of the Wizengamot at some point, and got involved in international wizarding politics. He did have a faction of followers, the ones who nominated him for Minister possible even before 1945 (if we are to believe what he tells Harry), definitely 3 times by circa 1960 when Tom interviewed with him.

But I don't think he wanted conventional politics. That was too mundane, required him to make the existing system work, and after a few years he'd be replaced. If he was into grandiose dreams he'd want to overturn the system entirely. But not by force. He wanted people to beg for him to save them and take over the show. Which almost happened in the 1040s, except Gellert did not attack Britain, so he was only asked to save Europe but wasn't given any dictator-for-life position in thanks.

[oryx_leucoryx]

1940s. Not 1040s.

[hwyla]

I would also guess that for at least a few years of that time, Albus was working on a few things with Flamel. I rather doubt even Albus was so brilliant that Nicholas would collaborate on 'scientific' experiments regarding dragon's blood until after he had taught Albus a thing or two.

And I just don't see that sort of collaboration as one between alchemist and tranfigurator, so my guess is that was probably in the first decade of the 1900s - mostly because I'm sure it was all those school honors that got Albus the introduction. I cannot see Flamel being that interested in a politician.