A Poll to Humor Your Statistically Inclined Hostess ...

[dawn_felagund]

I am working on a post for The Heretic Loremaster and am really curious about how people see the attack on Sirion and its aftermath as it relates to Maedhros and Maglor, and Elrond and Elros. I would appreciate the input of anyone who wishes to take the following poll

Comments

ooh, I love this time period!

[mithluin]

I think that 'canon' here is more than a bit vague. So, yes, there's the published Silm version with Maglor raising them, and the older version of the story in which it was Maedhros who raised them (or really just Elrond at that point?). Since that older version also implied different roles for Maedhros and Maglor when it came to sneaking into Eonwe's camp and final fates, it's not really a toss up as to which version you go with. Picking the older version changes a lot! And then there is the explanation of the names Elros and Elrond where Maglor finds the twins playing by a waterfall. So, I have a hard time saying that 'Maedhros raised them' is canon, but Tolkien did write that, and certainly Maedhros could have been around and helping while Maglor raised them

Re: ooh, I love this time period!

[dawn_felagund]

This is a totally awesome comment. :)

Actually, do you mind if I quote you in the post I'm writing? If you want to read the post first before giving permission, that is understandable, of course.

The canon here is really nebulous, I agree. It's actually kind of fascinating how the story evolved with so much going on between the first introduction of Elwing's Silmaril (and the sons of Feanor!) in BoLT and the rapid changes in the earliest Silmarillions and then ... *crickets* JRRT just stopped working on this part of the story. It makes me wonder how he really came to see the events at the end of the First Age and, maybe, if he just didn't get time to write down his thoughts. (Which is sad--and scary!--as a writer too who hasn't written down 99% of what's swirling around in her brain.)

For the "questions" on the poll, I think that most of them have no right answer; it depends on which source you want to use and how you interpret various canon details. I will confess that, for what I'm writing for the Heretic Loremaster, I really

Re: ooh, I love this time period!

[mithluin]

Sure, you're welcome to quote me if you like.

For research purposes, I would recommend Deborah's As Little Might Be Thought. And in general, I recommend French Pony's final chapter of Four Hands Around. Don't worry; 'A Bitter Truth' will find its way to SWG eventually, in some form or another

Re: ooh, I love this time period!

[mithluin]

Oh, and one detail I forgot to mention (but which is important to the 'hostage' question). Elrond becomes the Herald of Gil-galad, a position of some authority. That may have happened after Maglor had his run in with the Silmaril and forsook society, but at *some* point, Elrond seems to have moved from the Feanorean camp to Ereinion's camp. And that could be accomplished by transfering a hostage.

It can be accomplished in other ways, too, obviously. But I was negligent not to bring that up.

[pandemonium_213]

Ai, carambië! You know I'm averse to fitting the square "canon" peg into the round "mythology" one, but I gave it a shot. Question 1, yes, canonical. The rest, murky and squishy like any myth, whether in JRRT's secondary world or our primary one.

[dawn_felagund]

Actually, I think it's possible to argue for any of the interpretations on the poll, though some more than others. ;) I'm not so keen on finding the "right" answers as I am getting an idea of how people are interpreting the texts differently from how I may be reading them.

And I haven't been able to get the "squishy myths" out of my head since reading your comment ... ;)

[sirielle]

Elros and Elrond were taken captive* - to me it means became hostages - and with time Maglor fostered them. Stockholm syndrome, remorse, mercy and loneliness combination? Whatever, they finally ended loving and respecting each other. My red head is a loner, so kids were more Maglor's, but he took a part in their upbringing, too. Well, Maedhros was a father, Maglor replaced a mum ;) Maedhros would never try to kill them nor any other kid in a conscious act (Sirion battle madness doesn't count, but I assume twins weren't standing between him and Elwing). Other way he would not anger on Celegorm's servants in Doriath, nor tried to rescue the kids

[sirielle]

"Likewise, please don't feel that you need to look up what the books say before answering."

I haven't, I just got this quote burnt in my mind ;) But I remember from one discussion that JRRT changed his mind a few times before he decided that Maglor, not Maedhros looks for the twins. Or maybe that was about the Dior's boys and the case of Maedhros of Maglor looking for them.

[dawn_felagund]

Yep, he changed his mind on the Elrond-and-Elros scene. It was originally Maedhros who rescued Elrond; Elros wasn't around yet. That persisted for a while, then he added Elros and switched Maedhros and Maglor's roles. Which is why I think that one can use canon to justify nearly any answer to the poll, though I think some require a bit more stretching than others. :)

[rhapsody11]

That persisted for a while, then he added Elros and switched Maedhros and Maglor's roles.

See! Phew, I am glad that I didn't consider myself nuts by thinking: Dawn's going to be in stitches when I tell her that I remember reading that somewhere... but don't ask me where exactly!

[blslarner]

I took part in the poll, but wished to add the following; I did not notice that anyone identified who decided to take Elrond and Elros out into the wilderness to leave them exposed as happened to Elured and Elurin, but there was no question someone among the Noldorin did so. That Maglor found them and took pity on them is not open to question, however.

It is possible that at first Maedhros agreed to the situation with the idea that the two boys might be used as hostages; but I doubt that this lasted for long once he realized that his brother had opened his heart to the two children. That he might have been considered their "uncle" does appear probable.

[dawn_felagund]

Here is what I found concerning the waterfall part of the Elrond-Elros story, in Letter 211 to Rhona Beare (1958):

Elrond and Elros, children of Eärendil (sea-lover) and Elwing (Elf-foam), were so called, because they were carried off by the sons of Fëanor, in the last act of the feud between the high-elven houses of the Noldorin princes concerning the Silmarils .... The infants were not slain, but left like 'babes in the wood', in a cave with a fall of water over the entrance. There they were found: Elrond within the cave, and Elros dabbling in the water.
I thought that the passage occurred elsewhere in the texts, but I did a search of "waterfall" in all of my ebooks and "water" in HoMe IV, V, X, XI, and XII and came up with nothing relevant

[anonymous]

On the matter of them being held as hostages - this has always confused me. Who/what were they supposed to be ransomed for? Elwing took the Silmaril into the sea / out to sea / over the sea (I don't think anyone left behind would have known where it ended up until Earendil flew into battle wearing it 50? years later). I can't imagine them thinking Morgoth would want the boys. Any other survivors of Sirion - what would they have that the M's would want in exchange for the boys.

[dawn_felagund]

It's not an idea I've ever bought personally, so I can't really answer from the perspective of someone who finds truth in this possibility. mithluin mentions some possibilities in her thread on this post. Her idea that the sons of Elwing and Earendil could have been used to "buy" some kind of immunity from those who would otherwise attack or harass them certainly seems a possibility; she specifically uses the example of gaining the Feanorians a place on Balar. I can see how an author could make this work--it could be a good story, I think, particularly if you like political intrigue in stories (which I do)--but it's still not an idea I consider canonical, per se, or could imagine using in my writing.