Have I mentioned lately how much I love your brain?!?!?!?!? :)
I saw Razor a couple of weeks ago and need to rewatch it, I think, but I haven't been able to think about it very well--so far I've just been reacting to the lovely, insightful things other people have been saying rather than having any insight of my own. Partly my brain is so far away from BSG right now, and I'd just as soon keep it that way, given the wait till season 4. And partly it's that this story, while I liked it, was not the story I've been waiting for. And I just haven't had spare brain cells for fandom lately, in any event.
But what you've written here rings so true on every count, and I wish I was feeling capable of engaging with it in a more meaningful way right now.
Sorry to hear about the insomnia troubles! I hope you'll be able to get better rest this week. *hugs*
Thank you! I got a glorious 6 hours of sleep last night and my brain is creaking back into gear, sort of.
I think the fact that Razor was essentially a standalone story, and happened in the past in canon, makes it hard in some ways to put together with the rest of the show; but I was struck by the connections between the four women in it, and the fact that they all ended up dead.
I think the fact that Razor was essentially a standalone story, and happened in the past in canon, makes it hard in some ways to put together with the rest of the show
Yes, and particularly hard to put together with the rest of the show right now. It's a shame, really, that the timing worked out like it has, because I did enjoy Razor, but I think I would have enjoyed it more if it had come in chronological sequence. Or if it had come in the middle of a three- or four-month hiatus instead of a year-long hiatus when my mind has gone elsewhere. Or even if it had come after the end of the show when there was no preoccupying concern with what will happen next in the overall plot to distract us
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SciFi's assumption that people can maintain interest over a span of years is really, really irritating. Then again, if the writer's strike actually does go into the new year, perhaps I can rewatch and insert Razor into the correct chronological slot. That might be a good thing to do before the new season starts.
She never understands the transformative power of those decisions; she probably never expected to live long enough to have to face what she'd become. Kendra seems to, finally, when she admits that you become the choices you make.I hadn't thought about it, but Cain was certainly nihilistic and she probably did assume that she would die before being judged. It's also fair to say that since she believed that the Pegasus held the last remnants of humanity and would go down in a blaze of glory, she wouldn't have history books to judge her either. Once Cain was gone, Kendra was forced to face her sins and was obviously on a downward spiral of insubordination and drug addiction. She didn't seem terrified to stay behind on the hybrid ship and face death. It was the hybrid making her face her past that shook her. Like Kara, I'm not sure she was suicidal, but when she saw a chance to die and gain some peace, she took it
( ... )
I always thought Cain welcomed death when Gina showed up in her room; Razor really reinforced to me that she expected to die in this war, and that the only thing animating her was the possibility of taking as many Cylons down with her as she could before the end. It's easier to risk your people and yourself when you don't actually care about surviving. And I think it was much easier for her crew to face their existence with that hanging over their heads; Kendra had to face the possibility that she'd actually keep on living, and I think that was a real revelation for her. Perhaps suicidal isn't the right term, but I definitely think there were death wishes at play.
I'm glad you had a mostly-good Thanksgiving, and as usual, the food you made sounds amazing. (OK, mostly the trifle. I'm not sure how I feel about brussels sprouts; I don't think I've ever actually eaten them.) I'm very sorry to hear about the insomnia, though--I hope you get a good night's sleep tonight!
Did you know that about a year passed between S2 and S3 of dS (they were cancelled, and then they were brought back)? Which is part of the reason the changes are so dramatic. I will forever weep that Camilla Scott (Thatcher) cut and colored her hair--it was SO GORGEOUS in S2. Sigh.
On a completely unrelated note, I watched "Dog With Two Bones" today, which I've been itching to do recently. Then I watched it with the commentary and I think Claudia Black singing "this is the show that never ends" is maybe the cutest thing I have ever heard in my life. She is MADE OF MAGIC, dude.
I'm not sure how I feel about brussels sprouts; I don't think I've ever actually eaten them.
I am reading these words, but I do not understand them. Brussels sprouts are delicious. You are missing out!
Did you know that about a year passed between S2 and S3 of dS (they were cancelled, and then they were brought back)? Which is part of the reason the changes are so dramatic.
I knew that the change in Rays was precipitated by something like that; I guess David Marciano was working on another show when due South got a second life? But it didn't really prepare me for the utter change of tone.
Then I watched it with the commentary and I think Claudia Black singing "this is the show that never ends" is maybe the cutest thing I have ever heard in my life. She is MADE OF MAGIC, dude.I hadn't heard the commentary; I'm going to have to listen to that. (I've been going through the commentaries as I write the episodes up, which perhaps explains why I haven't gotten to "DwTB" yet. *cough*) I bet she has a lovely singing voice, too; she
( ... )
I will apparently have to try some brussels sprouts!
And yes, Marciano was committed to another show, hence the Ray switch. Also, Paul Gross became executive producer, hence the very noticeable tone switch. Honestly, I was pretty WTF about S3 the first time I saw it (though I like it better now that I know what to expect)--S4 went a lot better for me, in that they seemed to find their stride and dial down the wackiness to a more manageable level. But there are only a couple of episodes in the later seasons that live up to the quality of writing in the earlier seasons, IMO. I still enjoy the later seasons a lot, but that's more about my love for the characters than the actual craft of the writing. YMMV, of course.
And hee! I'm sure Claudia does have a lovely singing voice, since she is awesome in all other ways, but in this case she was doing this hilarious high-pitched Lambchop voice that was ADORABLE. Good times, especially after the emotional wringer of that episode.
I will apparently have to try some brussels sprouts!
They are little, tiny cabbages! Need I say more?
I'm keeping an open mind, but there were certain aspects to the S1/S2 writing (particularly earlier S2, since they seemed to be moving a bit away from it even then) that hit some very specific writing kinks I have--and I think you share--and the high degree of wackiness is a little disconcerting. It's not that I'm not enjoying it (I actually got a huge kick out of the way they introduced Ray K and just ran with the switcheroo) but it definitely doesn't feel like the show I started watching.
Excellent analysis of Razor. You are spot-on, as always.
I've gone back and forth on the lesbian thing. All of what you say is true, and yet...two things. One, I have wanted queers on the bridge since my formative Trek years, and goddamnit, I finally got some, *finally*, and I am frankly savoring it.
Two, I think I'd feel differently if there were a single example of a healthy heterosexual relationship on the show, but there isn't. There aren't even any stable heterosexual people, really. So while I'll agree Cain's personality type plays conveniently into lesbian stereotypes, I can't fault the show for saying lesbians are broken: the first three seasons have been all about how straight people are broken (often in stereotypical ways, too).
So, yeah, there is discomfort, there is ambivalence, but I can't quite hate it.
I've gone back and forth on the lesbian thing. All of what you say is true, and yet...two things. One, I have wanted queers on the bridge since my formative Trek years, and goddamnit, I finally got some, *finally*, and I am frankly savoring it.
Yeah, I'm not finding myself annoyed by it the way I might on another show, because BSG has an extremely good track record with complex female characters in general, and because, as you say, none of the characters are particularly whole and healthy. Still, Cain was, in my estimation, extraordinarily monstrous even by the show's own scale, and part of me wishes they hadn't gone there, especially since a lot of the outward signs of her dysfunction--lack of sensitivity to others, aggressive assertiveness, etc.--are coded as "unfeminine" and are things women in powerful positions get criticized for all the time, and here they were explicitly written as warning signs that there was something terribly wrong with her. I understood what they were trying to do, and think they mostly succeeded, but it
( ... )
Two, I think I'd feel differently if there were a single example of a healthy heterosexual relationship on the show, but there isn't. There aren't even any stable heterosexual people, really. So while I'll agree Cain's personality type plays conveniently into lesbian stereotypes, I can't fault the show for saying lesbians are broken: the first three seasons have been all about how straight people are broken (often in stereotypical ways, too).I have to admit I didn't think about the stereotypes or how the revelation could not be a positive thing, but I still appreciate the points you make here. I think if all or the majority of the heterosexual relationships were shown to be healthy, then I would have had more issues with the Cain/Gina relationship. Jamie, in discussing the Lee/Kara relationship in a recent interview, pointed out all it's problems and obstacles and threw in that the only long-term, healthy relationship on the show has been Helo and Sharon. And I'd say they have their own set of unique issues
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All in all I think the show's heart was in the right place. They decided to make Cain a woman to reinforce the idea that women filled powerful positions in colonial society. They decided to make her a lesbian to show that it was no big deal in their world. I just think that, like other storylines, perhaps the execution could have been a bit better.
I don't even have issues with the execution, really. As a piece of individual storytelling, I understood what they were trying to do, and it was powerfully written and acted. But nothing happens in a vacuum, so it's still a more nuanced and interesting version of the same old cliche that litters the television landscape, and I can't see it without that context.
I came across your writing thru Pellucid. She recommended your comments. Your insight into RAZOR was fascinating to read.
It made me rethink the whole cyclon idea of this has all happen before and will happen again. I always took that to mean that somehow these specific people and events were repeating with the cylcons being aware of it but not Humanity. I know think it is a more general idea of everyone being caught up in a never ending cycle of creation and destruction. I believe that Kara's role in all this is to finally break us out of that cycle.
I don't think Cain being a lesbian is problematic. If you are saying that since we don't have a wide range of GLB characters out there then we should only show positive ones, then I disagree. Showing that Lesbians can be just as flawed and fracked up as the rest of us is not a bad thing.
I always took that to mean that somehow these specific people and events were repeating with the cylcons being aware of it but not Humanity. I know think it is a more general idea of everyone being caught up in a never ending cycle of creation and destruction. I believe that Kara's role in all this is to finally break us out of that cycle.
I kind of go back and forth on it, because I don't think the two things are mutually exclusive. After all, humans who had legends of Earth founded the Twelve Colonies for a reason, and for all we know it was because they were fleeing Cylons (though if they were, you would expect more of that to show up in their mythology).
If you are saying that since we don't have a wide range of GLB characters out there then we should only show positive ones, then I disagree. Showing that Lesbians can be just as flawed and fracked up as the rest of us is not a bad thing.That is not at all what I was saying. To rephrase what I did say, there is a very well-known cliche about all the lesbians on TV being either
( ... )
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I saw Razor a couple of weeks ago and need to rewatch it, I think, but I haven't been able to think about it very well--so far I've just been reacting to the lovely, insightful things other people have been saying rather than having any insight of my own. Partly my brain is so far away from BSG right now, and I'd just as soon keep it that way, given the wait till season 4. And partly it's that this story, while I liked it, was not the story I've been waiting for. And I just haven't had spare brain cells for fandom lately, in any event.
But what you've written here rings so true on every count, and I wish I was feeling capable of engaging with it in a more meaningful way right now.
Sorry to hear about the insomnia troubles! I hope you'll be able to get better rest this week. *hugs*
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I think the fact that Razor was essentially a standalone story, and happened in the past in canon, makes it hard in some ways to put together with the rest of the show; but I was struck by the connections between the four women in it, and the fact that they all ended up dead.
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Yes, and particularly hard to put together with the rest of the show right now. It's a shame, really, that the timing worked out like it has, because I did enjoy Razor, but I think I would have enjoyed it more if it had come in chronological sequence. Or if it had come in the middle of a three- or four-month hiatus instead of a year-long hiatus when my mind has gone elsewhere. Or even if it had come after the end of the show when there was no preoccupying concern with what will happen next in the overall plot to distract us ( ... )
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I'm glad you had a mostly-good Thanksgiving, and as usual, the food you made sounds amazing. (OK, mostly the trifle. I'm not sure how I feel about brussels sprouts; I don't think I've ever actually eaten them.) I'm very sorry to hear about the insomnia, though--I hope you get a good night's sleep tonight!
Did you know that about a year passed between S2 and S3 of dS (they were cancelled, and then they were brought back)? Which is part of the reason the changes are so dramatic. I will forever weep that Camilla Scott (Thatcher) cut and colored her hair--it was SO GORGEOUS in S2. Sigh.
On a completely unrelated note, I watched "Dog With Two Bones" today, which I've been itching to do recently. Then I watched it with the commentary and I think Claudia Black singing "this is the show that never ends" is maybe the cutest thing I have ever heard in my life. She is MADE OF MAGIC, dude.
Reply
I am reading these words, but I do not understand them. Brussels sprouts are delicious. You are missing out!
Did you know that about a year passed between S2 and S3 of dS (they were cancelled, and then they were brought back)? Which is part of the reason the changes are so dramatic.
I knew that the change in Rays was precipitated by something like that; I guess David Marciano was working on another show when due South got a second life? But it didn't really prepare me for the utter change of tone.
Then I watched it with the commentary and I think Claudia Black singing "this is the show that never ends" is maybe the cutest thing I have ever heard in my life. She is MADE OF MAGIC, dude.I hadn't heard the commentary; I'm going to have to listen to that. (I've been going through the commentaries as I write the episodes up, which perhaps explains why I haven't gotten to "DwTB" yet. *cough*) I bet she has a lovely singing voice, too; she ( ... )
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And yes, Marciano was committed to another show, hence the Ray switch. Also, Paul Gross became executive producer, hence the very noticeable tone switch. Honestly, I was pretty WTF about S3 the first time I saw it (though I like it better now that I know what to expect)--S4 went a lot better for me, in that they seemed to find their stride and dial down the wackiness to a more manageable level. But there are only a couple of episodes in the later seasons that live up to the quality of writing in the earlier seasons, IMO. I still enjoy the later seasons a lot, but that's more about my love for the characters than the actual craft of the writing. YMMV, of course.
And hee! I'm sure Claudia does have a lovely singing voice, since she is awesome in all other ways, but in this case she was doing this hilarious high-pitched Lambchop voice that was ADORABLE. Good times, especially after the emotional wringer of that episode.
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They are little, tiny cabbages! Need I say more?
I'm keeping an open mind, but there were certain aspects to the S1/S2 writing (particularly earlier S2, since they seemed to be moving a bit away from it even then) that hit some very specific writing kinks I have--and I think you share--and the high degree of wackiness is a little disconcerting. It's not that I'm not enjoying it (I actually got a huge kick out of the way they introduced Ray K and just ran with the switcheroo) but it definitely doesn't feel like the show I started watching.
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I've gone back and forth on the lesbian thing. All of what you say is true, and yet...two things. One, I have wanted queers on the bridge since my formative Trek years, and goddamnit, I finally got some, *finally*, and I am frankly savoring it.
Two, I think I'd feel differently if there were a single example of a healthy heterosexual relationship on the show, but there isn't. There aren't even any stable heterosexual people, really. So while I'll agree Cain's personality type plays conveniently into lesbian stereotypes, I can't fault the show for saying lesbians are broken: the first three seasons have been all about how straight people are broken (often in stereotypical ways, too).
So, yeah, there is discomfort, there is ambivalence, but I can't quite hate it.
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Yeah, I'm not finding myself annoyed by it the way I might on another show, because BSG has an extremely good track record with complex female characters in general, and because, as you say, none of the characters are particularly whole and healthy. Still, Cain was, in my estimation, extraordinarily monstrous even by the show's own scale, and part of me wishes they hadn't gone there, especially since a lot of the outward signs of her dysfunction--lack of sensitivity to others, aggressive assertiveness, etc.--are coded as "unfeminine" and are things women in powerful positions get criticized for all the time, and here they were explicitly written as warning signs that there was something terribly wrong with her. I understood what they were trying to do, and think they mostly succeeded, but it ( ... )
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I don't even have issues with the execution, really. As a piece of individual storytelling, I understood what they were trying to do, and it was powerfully written and acted. But nothing happens in a vacuum, so it's still a more nuanced and interesting version of the same old cliche that litters the television landscape, and I can't see it without that context.
Reply
It made me rethink the whole cyclon idea of this has all happen before and will happen again. I always took that to mean that somehow these specific people and events were repeating with the cylcons being aware of it but not Humanity. I know think it is a more general idea of everyone being caught up in a never ending cycle of creation and destruction. I believe that Kara's role in all this is to finally break us out of that cycle.
I don't think Cain being a lesbian is problematic. If you are saying that since we don't have a wide range of GLB characters out there then we should only show positive ones, then I disagree. Showing that Lesbians can be just as flawed and fracked up as the rest of us is not a bad thing.
Reply
I kind of go back and forth on it, because I don't think the two things are mutually exclusive. After all, humans who had legends of Earth founded the Twelve Colonies for a reason, and for all we know it was because they were fleeing Cylons (though if they were, you would expect more of that to show up in their mythology).
If you are saying that since we don't have a wide range of GLB characters out there then we should only show positive ones, then I disagree. Showing that Lesbians can be just as flawed and fracked up as the rest of us is not a bad thing.That is not at all what I was saying. To rephrase what I did say, there is a very well-known cliche about all the lesbians on TV being either ( ... )
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