Cause Education

[dalekboy]

This post has been brewing for a couple of years. It's not about any one of the many causes worth fighting for, it's not about or aimed at any one person, it hasn't been spurred on by any one event.

Abuse and accusations are not how you win people over to your way of thinking. Keeping your allies on the back-foot because you think they should

Comments

[kateorman]

Coincidentally, this morning I read this:

http://www.sunpig.com/abi/archives/2009/04/12/how_to_sour_a_community_in_one_easy_lesson/

Obviously it alludes to some off-stage conflict. Veeerrry possibly the same one you're alluding to. Personally, I don't want cookies and pats on the head, but I can do without being punched in the tits.

[dalekboy]

Didn't know about this, and there's no real off-stage thingy that has spurred it, beyond my grumpiness level having reached the point where I could write about this. This has been simmering away for years.

Of course the grumpiness and headache makes it very hard to write those thoughts coherently :)

I'm pretty much right with you RE: cookies and tit punching.

[kateorman]

I'm pretty much right with you RE: cookies and tit punching.

I think a broad online consensus may be forming on this issue.

[dalekboy]

I wouldn't be surprised.

It's become one of those things where people are hamstrung by those looking to make someone uncomfortable. It's like the old thing where you tell someone they look nice today and their reply is, "So you don't normally think I look nice."

And if one steps in to say, "No, I'm pretty sure that's not what they meant," then one becomes nothing more than a fresh target.

It is not helpful to anyone.

[dalekboy]

The main thing that spurred it was just idly thinking about positive reinforcement, and how incredibly effective it is at training. It's been noted as being equally effective at training animals and humans.

From there I thought about the people I've seen get totally reamed over something small, and how I've watched them turn nasty about that subject, where previously they were simply apathetic.

That's not an effective result for anyone.

"Yes Minister"

[jocko55]

Ah, when the boss has a certain way of doing things, you have to learn how to manage the manager. I tend to think about what I tell my boss, although sometimes I just give him all the detail--we both like technology and toys.
I do think JMS got it wrong, there cannot be two castes of Minbari, Religious and Warriors, there has to be a third worker caste, who actually grow food, build stuff and are at the bottom of things. I had always had this mental image of a nondescript Minbari bowing low to Delenn, murmouring "Yes Satai,of course Satai, what an innovative decision" before backing out of the room.

[jblum]

*Damn* well said!

[strangedave]

Amen.

Thought like this have been brewing when I've been thinking about the online racism debate.

[dalekboy]

This wasn't about the racism debate, though naturally that is one of the many issues it can cover. And I know you knew that :)

I'm basically sick of seeing relatively good people who, based on their previous actions and posts, obviously believe in and actively support some of these important causes, and yet they have their every comment picked apart by people looking to trip them up.

And this is usually done by people who know them!

I'm also sick of everyone who doesn't understand a complex social problem being accused of being against it, or told that they can't understand it because of who they are.

The thing about any issue is that people need to be educated, not abused, told they're dumb, or that their life experience precludes empathy for another. Those reactions just mean that people who'd be willing to help, that would be willing to listen and try to learn, end up putting it in the too hard basket.

[wolflullaby]

I'm often afraid to comment on very touchy subjects for this very reason. I have to choose my words very carefully, but even then if something I say sounds like it could be taken two different ways it's often taken the way I don't intend.

I'm terrified of offending people, or of having people think less of me or be angry at me, so often I'll stay quiet to avoid that.

Commenting on the internet can be delicate because it's hard to convey emotion with text, and so easier for people to take things the wrong way. Also in some cases people don't see the consequences of the things they say to people (for example they won't see someone cry after someone says something hurtful to them), and so speak more harshly than they would do in person.

I think this is a bit of a tangent to your rant, but these are thoughts that it brings up for me.

[dalekboy]

I think this is a bit of a tangent to your rant...

I kind of think of it as a, by default, central idea. Attacking every little slip just silences the people you should want on side.

It's sad. On one hand you have people saying, "If you're staying silent, then that's effectively giving permission to such-and-such that this behaviour is okay," on the other, a loud section of the people who believe this will shout down and pick apart potential allies until they decide that silence is the best option.

The other thing about the internet is that people are very brave about thoughtlessly tearing someone apart online, but the vast majority of those same bullies would be far too scared to act so rude face to face.

As far as I'm concerned, you're welcome to say what you want on here. If someone started picking I'd be all too happy to tear them a new one.

[capnoblivious]

Thanks for this.