Suicide, an open poll

[coraljune]

It's been a weird day to be a therapist. Days like today, I don't like my job so much.
An interesting ethical/moral question arose after my last session of the day, which was with a girl who is chronically and persistently suicidal (and quite frankly has every reason to be).

Is suicide really always a bad call? We preserve life at almost all

Comments

[alchemi]

If one is sure one cannot resist impulses to go great harm (fuck children, kill people, etc). Now I'm not suggesting anyone should encourage them, but I think of that as a moral option.

Interestingly - basketball Hall of Famer Larry Bird's father killed himself in such a way that it was not obvious it was a suicide so that his deeply impoverished family could get by. Bird described the situation as tragic but understood his father's decision - he believed his father was convinced that he (the father) was incapable of getting himself together enough to provide for his family. I'm not sure that's a moral choice, but it's worth debating.

[coraljune]

I agree with your point there about patently immoral impulse control. If one feels compelled to fuck children or kill people, and knows that they will succumb to those urges, then I'm all for suicide as a moral alternative.

I've thought about Larry Bird's situation - someone killing themselves so that their family can live drom the insurance payout. That's a tough call, but tragic as it must be I could see making it.

Answering your question with more questions

[brbrbrad]

Tried calling you just now. Left a message.

Interesting question. I think the first thing you must do before answering it is to determine what is it about suicide that makes it, as a general rule, wrong?

A utilitarian argument would be that when a person kills him/herself, it generally leads to an increase in the overall unhappiness of the people around them, either directly or indirectly. Under this approach, suicide becomes justifiable if a person's own unhappiness is greater than or equal to the amount of unhappiness they would create by the act of suicide. Strict utilitarianism would even go so far as to say that you could be morally obligated to commit suicide. This happens if killing yourself would create more happiness in the world than anything you are able to do while alive.

Does being alive and healthy confer some obligation to go on living? If so, what is the source of that obligation? If not, and if no one else's survival depends on your own, is killing yourself ever truly "wrong"? Is it ever really wrong to

Re: Answering your question with more questions

[jamesorr81]

That's almost a bit too much fatalism for me to swollow. I mean, as above, people with unhealthy impulses that they cannot control that lead to harm to themselves or others might fall under this explanation.

However, I think that there is a definite point where there's no turning back and there's no way that you're going to be able to make up for the amount of hurt that you've caused, even if you do a whole lot of good in the mean time. Now, I think that that point is really really really far down the line. There's almost always something that you could do to turn things around, karmically. There's hardly ever such a karmic hole that you couldn't dig yourself out of. Even horrible Nazi war criminals could have, spurred on by a sudden feeling of remorse, tried to dig themselves out of the karmic hole they'd found their way into. Sometimes, trying counts as something. Now, if you can't bring yourself to try, for some reason or another...

That's a whole different kettle of fish.

Re: Answering your question with more questions

[coraljune]

Tangential question: Are you Irish?

I think that the idea of potential matters here. I'd wager that there is almost always potential for redemption, good, change, and betterment. But the ability to grasp that potential... that's kind of a trickier thing. Even those who bring themselves to try, as you mentioned, may still fail, and fail spectacularly.

Re: Answering your question with more questions

[jamesorr81]

What an interesting question. Yes, actually, I claim a great deal of Irish heritage.

You've hit where I was going with that great response. Grasping potential. Everyone I think has the potential for great good and great evil. finding the motivation (what's my motivation?) to grasp either of them is the trick, and then being able to follow through. Yes.

Is it better to have tried and failed, than never to have tried at all?

[oldsoulpatrol]

hmm.. i always believed that it should be one's choice.. but yet we can never see the future. who's to say that the future doesn't hold something for them. and how do you morally say i knew they were gonna kill themselves but i let them do it. maybe they would be better off dead. this not only is a moral question it is a religious and every other type of question about the beliefs of humanity. i think their is no "right" answer. i think that it is what it is to you. i love you.

[coraljune]

With regard to "who's to say that the future doesn't hold something for them," that's the nagging point of doubt for many that keeps them alive. And usually that's a good thing.

For this girl that I mentioned, her resources are so few, and her limitations are so pervasive and severe, that I don't imagine she'll ever be happy here. If she were to die in an accident tomorrow, it might be the kindest thing the universe could do for her. But would I have her admitted rather than knowingly let her kill herself? Absolutely. Because there's no way I'd want that on my head. Would it be unfair of me to do that though? Maybe. Legally, and ethically, I'm obligated to keep her safe and alive to the extent that it's in my power to do so, but it might not be nice.

[tyrael013]

My best answer is simply this:

I don't know.

[coraljune]

Fair enough. And really, does anyone?

[mugoi_usagi]

I gotta agree with the "I don't know" but there must be something better to do. Some way to rescue them from the things that make them feel that way. Save them from their families or something like that. Isn't there some way we can remove people from the harmful things in their lives??

[coraljune]

Isn't there some way we can remove people from the harmful things in their lives??

I wish. This also presumes, I think, that the harmful things are external. Other people, situations, environmental causes of distress. But what if it's the residue of past experience, or physical/physiological issues that can't be "removed" like that.

[mugoi_usagi]

Again I go with the "I don't know." If only there was something like in "Eternal Sunshine of the Spotless Mind"