Independence Day and the pragmatics of patriotism

[melvin_udall]

After the cut is a somewhat long read. I feel it's worth it. A side note before the post:

At the close of the Constitutional Convention of 1787, Benjamin Franklin was queried as he left Independence Hall on the final day of deliberation as to what form of government the people of America would have. He responded to the crowd:

"A republic, if

Comments

[nevermind6794]

I think he mostly misses the point. Protecting others in the herd has a practical value, it's true, but I take patriotism to encompass more than that. It means making a free choice to protect something or someone because it is important to you regardless of its/their practical value. The fact that it is a free choice and not a survival instinct is precisely why it is so important.

[nevermind6794]

That said, he did make some good points that remind me of one of my favorite quotes:

War is an ugly thing, but not the ugliest of things. The decayed and degraded state of moral and patriotic feeling, which thinks that nothing is worth war, is much worse. The person who has nothing for which he is willing to fight, nothing which is more important than his own personal safety, is a miserable creature and has no chance of being free unless made and kept so by the exertions of better men than himself.
--John Stuart Mill

[melvin_udall]

Excellent quote.

[level_head]

I certainly agree with this.

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[onefatmusicnerd]

I think this is excellent:

"The next level in moral behavior higher than that exhibited by the baboon is that in which duty and loyalty are shown toward a group of your own kind too large for an individual to know all of them."

It bothers me that duty has become such a dirty word in our culture, and loyalty, what the hell is wrong with loyalty?

Oh, and pacifism, don't get me started on that crap. War may be a gigantic exercise in evil deeds, and the current war in Iraq may be a mistake, but pacifism? Really? Until someone convinces me that we could have talked Hitler out of the Holocaust, I really just can't buy it.

[level_head]

It has always struck me as ironic to hear the descendants of American slaves singing "War! What is it good for? Absolutely nothing!"

The quote that Nevermind referenced above on war is a good one, and speaks a grim truth.

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[rillifane]

"...in the course of the naval careers of the class of '73- there will be nuclear-powered, constant-boost spaceships-ships capable of going to Mars and back in a couple of weeks-and these ships will be armed with Buck-Rogersish death rays."

The naval careers of the class of 73 are drawing to a close. Where are the nuclear powered spaces ships and the death rays?

Mr. Heinlein writes amusing fiction. So have many people. That it is science fiction clearly doesn't make him any better at making pronouncements about technological development than say, Beatrice Potter.

If he is no more qualified to write about science as a science fiction author then why should I be persuaded that the political theories he injects in his fiction carry any authority?

[melvin_udall]

Where are the nuclear powered spaces ships and the death rays?

"I did not say that the United States will have these ships. The present sorry state of our country does not permit me to make such a prediction."

Predictions are funny things. His ideas were not unattainable.

Any clown can look back on a man of vision and laugh if their predictions come true. Case in point with you.

That it is science fiction clearly doesn't make him any better at making pronouncements about technological development than say, Beatrice Potter.

No one said it did.

why should I be persuaded that the political theories he injects in his fiction carry any authority?

If you can find where I indicated his theories carry authority let me know.

He wrote something I enjoyed and agreed with. I posted it.

You added absolutely nothing to this discussion. Good for you. Take a crap out of your arrogant mouth elsewhere if you having nothing of value to add.

This is how a man ... lives!

[justgoto]

Thanks for posting this!

[kylinrouge]

I just think patriotism is thinking that the government will not fuck you over. Granted, there are exceptions, but I generally think Big Washington isn't out to get me. That I can rely on them at least for security and to protect my freedoms. That's patriotism enough.

[level_head]

Here we differ, I think.

You are suggesting, it seems to me, that patriot is an acknowledgment of your dependence on the government.

I suggest that patriotism is an acknowledgment and acceptance of the fact that the country depends upon you.

The former suggests that the highest form of patriotism is passive dependence. The latter shows that the highest form of patriotism is risking your life for your country.

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[kylinrouge]

Ehhh, it depends. That statement is so vague it doesn't really mean anything to me.