Way back when this show first started, I was disappointed with BtVS vampire mythology, because BtVS canon, at least as it was presented in season one, was that a vampire wasn't
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This is Angel's recognition that the worse traits he exhibited as Angelus came from him, Liam, from his worse traits as an individual. This is sort of the point of me asking the question, "How would YOU behave if you didn't have a conscience?" I think each of us would behave in a way that let our worst traits run free, those things we normally keep a lid on because we believe that they're wrong to act on. And those things are so individualistic.
Angel recognizes that what made him so bad in his Angelus days was precisely what made him a bad person in general. You can take away the demon, and he'd still have those traits, even if he kept them under control.
How would you behave with blood lust and no conscience?
We've had this discussion, but I'll go back to noting that I think my worst trait - aside from self-involvement - is my lack of ambition and drive. I'm very low id, and short on frustration. I'm motivated by convenience. Which, actually, would make me an inconsequential villain.
In other words, you'd be the redshirt in the teaser of the Buffy episode, except that would involve getting out of your armchair and turning off tonight's random sports thing, and *that's* so not going to happen.
It depends. If I'm killed and dumped by some random vamp, yeah I'd be a red shirt.
But if they don't catch me when I first rise, I probably find out that there are things that kill vampires, and I spend the rest of eternity not doing the things that attract the attention of things that kill vampires. And watching a lot of TV.
It's those Extrovert vampires who really get themselves into trouble.
The Watchers Did IthankatJuly 10 2008, 11:51:12 UTC
And we all know what pissy bureaucrats they turned out to be. Giles quoted a book when he said what he knew about the vampire and I have to admit not much happened to change his mind over the years. But, the longer the Buffyverse went on the more complicated it became. The Slayer was found to be part demon created by the Watchers to do the battle for everyone else. Vampires were demons but not the most evil creatures around. So, I say that due to dramatic convenience or, the fans who pointed out some of the obvious about their metaphysics, that the writers had to evolve the vampires as well as the Slayers which reached a new low with the Vampire hookers in season five.
The Soul thing looked good on paper for awhile but would make for flat characters unless they could do things that were more unexpected and less to do with being pure evil, kinda like normal folk.
Re: The Watchers Did ItmasqthephlsphrJuly 10 2008, 16:45:29 UTC
And that was exactly the problem. The way they set up the nature of vampires in season one, you were looking at some really, really two-dimensional vampire characters. Which I think they realized early on, and had to fudge with. However, I don't think all the writers were ever entirely divested of the idea that the the soulless vamp is an entirely different person than the souled vamp. I'm thinking of some mid-season 4 AtS episodes especially, where every word of dialogue is "OMG Angelus is a separate consciousness/person/entity from Angel!"
Paleeease.
You can excuse that when the dialogue comes out of the mouths of Angel's friends, who are trying to reassure themselves they don't work for a monster. But in eps like Orpheus, it's just cringe-worthy.
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Angel recognizes that what made him so bad in his Angelus days was precisely what made him a bad person in general. You can take away the demon, and he'd still have those traits, even if he kept them under control.
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How would you behave with blood lust and no conscience?
We've had this discussion, but I'll go back to noting that I think my worst trait - aside from self-involvement - is my lack of ambition and drive. I'm very low id, and short on frustration. I'm motivated by convenience. Which, actually, would make me an inconsequential villain.
Reply
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But if they don't catch me when I first rise, I probably find out that there are things that kill vampires, and I spend the rest of eternity not doing the things that attract the attention of things that kill vampires. And watching a lot of TV.
It's those Extrovert vampires who really get themselves into trouble.
Reply
Reply
The Soul thing looked good on paper for awhile but would make for flat characters unless they could do things that were more unexpected and less to do with being pure evil, kinda like normal folk.
Reply
Paleeease.
You can excuse that when the dialogue comes out of the mouths of Angel's friends, who are trying to reassure themselves they don't work for a monster. But in eps like Orpheus, it's just cringe-worthy.
Reply
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