In which I put my ranting boots on.

[cidercupcakes]

This is all pretty old news to the HAES folks on my flist, I think, but I've seen a couple of posts/comments pop up that have really infuriated me, and I just need to let off some steam

Comments

[inlovewithnight]

Thank you for writing this.

[cidercupcakes]

<3! IDEK what brought it on, I have just been stewing over it for awhile and then there were some comments that made me blow up. I'm glad you liked it!

[rhipowered]

Hence why the "real women have curves" meme is really fucking offensive to me

Indeed. I'm naturally sort of stick-shaped and look thinner than I actually am. I respect the fat-positive movement, but at the same time, pls to not be getting down on people because of appearance in any way, fat or skinny or in between.

Not to mention that sizeism fucks those of us who are tall (and our shorter-than-average friends) in a subtler but still present way. I wait for the day when I can buy a pair of pants at your average department store instead of frantically hoping there's still a pair or two of 12 Tall at American Eagle when the sales are on.

[cidercupcakes]

Ugh, yeah. Like, this was not intended to be about sizism in particular, that was just sort of the best example because it's the most visible, especially in fandom where we have a lot of talking about photoshoots/stills/videos. Guess what, dudes, I'm a size two, and I'm a grown-ass, reasonably intelligent woman who can make her own decisions. If I want a damn sandwich, I can make it myself, so why don't you take that one you're condescendingly offering a woman who looks like me and shove it?

Another example would be the cooing of "oh, I just want to wrap her up in a towel" as a response to women in bikinis/greased-up and mostly-naked in men's magazines. Guess what, that lady's arms are not broken, she is perfectly capable of getting herself a towel. If you want to talk about exploitation and the male gaze, we can do that, but how about we do that without further robbing these women of agency?

[inathunderstorm]

without further robbing these women of agency?

OH, OH, RIGHT?

I get tired of the "but no woman would WANT to do that!" argument. UM MAYBE THEY DO. It always rings as anti-sex-positive to me.

[cidercupcakes]

YYYYYY. And this is where, as you point out, it starts to tie into the sex-positive movement, because guess what, sometimes women -- and men -- like being sexualized! And of course there's the whole debate of what's sexualization vs. what's just sexual objectification and blah blah blah, but the short answer is that acting like no sane woman would ever want to be seen as sexual is really offensive, and those who do must be damaged or crazy or unintelligent, is pretty problematic in its own way, if not always as blatant or dangerous a way as simply sexualizing/sexually objectifying all women by default.

Like, absolutely we can and should talk about objectification and the male gaze and exploitation, because having said all this, the way women are treated in magazines and on TV and in movies is more often than not pretty offensive, and the way that, say, women are reduced merely to the parts of them that are sexually attractive in men's magazines is really problematic too. But by reducing them to helpless children who need Real

[apis_mellifera]

Hey, just so you know, I'm fat. Like deathfat-fat. And I am coming to the conclusion that people like me and people on the super-skinny end of the spectrum have a hell of a lot in common in terms of how our bodies are othered in this culture. It's complicated and I'm currently on the outs with a lot of the fat positive/size acceptance movement (which I don't think serves deathfatties particularly well) but I just wanted to say that I am completely on board with your rant.

It is impossible to be a woman* and have a body that's acceptable--there's always something that's going to be "wrong" with it. It's a game that no one can win.

*Actually, impossible to be a human being, but I do think women--all women, both cis and trans--get hit harder than men.

[inathunderstorm]

It is impossible to be a woman* and have a body that's acceptable-

Word. I'd go so far as to say marketing geared towards women operates on the basic "you're not good enough" theory just in *general*, and so much of this marketing is created *by other women*, argh. It's very distressing!

[apis_mellifera]

Oh, yes! Have you seen this? http://tigerbeatdown.com/?p=731 Because when I read this post, it was the very first thing I think of. Women are SO GOOD at cutting themselves and each other down and it's so depressing.

[cidercupcakes]

And I am coming to the conclusion that people like me and people on the super-skinny end of the spectrum have a hell of a lot in common in terms of how our bodies are othered in this culture.

Oh, yeah, I could definitely buy that. Because you're right, a lot of this goes on at the other end of the spectrum from me, where there's the assumption of "well, if you're fat, it must be because you hate yourself" and the condescension happens quite a bit in different ways. :\ Guess what, we are adults capable of making decisions about our own health and bodies!

It's a game that no one can win.

MFY. Ugh, society. >:( &fistshake;

[inathunderstorm]

Oh man, that "Real Women Have Curves" thing makes me DDDDDDDDDDD: It's this idea that in order to be a real woman you have to possess ONE CERTAIN TRAIT--and that it's BASED ON BODY SIZE--yeah, no thanks.

Consumer marketing towards women makes me >:( most of the time. LOOKING AT YOU ESPECIALLY, WOMEN'S MAGAZINES.

I'm your same height, but at my healthiest weight I'm an 8/10. So we do not look like the same kind of girl, which means YAY MORE KINDS OF GIRLS TO BE PRETTY! As you are very lovely! Beauty is a diverse concept, not a single absolute! It would be so much more positive for women if we celebrated both our own bodies and those who have completely different ones from us, you know? BECAUSE YAY, GIRLS. <3

And yay, you!

[cidercupcakes]

YYYYY. Like, I love the HAES and fat-positive feminists who are actually able to go "no, guess what, the 'real women have curves' meme is not actually helpful because it just does the same thing, namely idealizes one type of body that only a small percentage of the population is actually going to achieve". And guess what, how much weight you're carrying has a lot less to do with curviness than how that weight is distributed, eg how your body is naturally formed.

(I also really hate dudes -- or ladies, but especially dudes -- who try to "helpfully" chime in with "yeah, and no one wants to have sex with a girl who looks like a Holocaust victim!" because wow, guess what, you totally don't get it, nice job completely turning it into a game of The Most Important Thing Is What Men Find Sexually Desirable!)

It would be so much more positive for women if we celebrated both our own bodies and those who have completely different ones from us, you know?

YYYYY, exactly. Like, the basic point here is that the predominance of any one body type

[tacky_tramp]

yeah, and no one wants to have sex with a girl who looks like a Holocaust victim!

*stab*

[eska_rina]

"yeah, and no one wants to have sex with a girl who looks like a Holocaust victim!"

...I'm speechless. I kind of find the pedo-comments funny, but that?! That's like... That's so fucking offensive on so many levels. Wow. Wowwowwow.

[dragged_up]

I'd like to thank you for this post too.

Re: sizeism - I've seen a lot of really nasty things from nominally feminist sources (LOL THE ONLY PEOPLE WHO WOULD WANT TO HAVE SEX WITH SOMEONE SHAPED LIKE KEIRA KNIGHTLEY ARE PEDOPHILES AMIRITE) and it just baffles me. Like, I'm pretty sure being horrible about other women (see also the faux concern that always pops up, whether you're talking about Keira or Beth Ditto) really REALLY isn't helping ANYONE.

[cidercupcakes]

LOL THE ONLY PEOPLE WHO WOULD WANT TO HAVE SEX WITH SOMEONE SHAPED LIKE KEIRA KNIGHTLEY ARE PEDOPHILES AMIRITE

OH MAN I HATE THAT SHIT SO MUCH, SO FUCKING MUCH, it's right up there with the faux-concern. Like, great, not only are you infantilizing these adult women, but you're also just going along with the idea that the only kind of beauty that matters is what makes dudes want to have sex.